Bike falling away to left

[Sidehacker]

Poorbiker
I hate passing the buck but if you have the frame square and are measuring from a square surface from the square surface to the centerline of axel and there is a difference then first you need to talk to an expert to see what if any acceptable variances are. Steve Little might be able to give you some insight into solving this problem. I have read everything he has submitted and am very impressed with what he knows. I know he is a real busy man but he has answered me every time I asked him a question. And he is definitely a frame expert .

[poorbiker]

Sidehacker,
I agree, Steve would be the guy to ask. I have bought some items from him, great products, I`ve had some pretty good emails with him also. But I cant send frame to him and couldnt afford to take it to him if he lived accross the street. Not that he charges to much just that I am that broke. And I am very sure he would not attempt to do what I am thinkin without a frame jig. I know applying that kind of heat to either raise one side or lower the other is subject to alot of, "you are gonna or you did what". But lack of funds and being a bit impatient will cause me to figure it out. Not that any input from Steve woundnt be great, it would. Funny back in the late seventies and early eighties I would not have thought twice about cutting welding bending. Rode those old bikes never knowing the difference. Sometimes ignorance is bliss, I`m still a bit blissfull.....

[TimR]

Poorboker, before you fire up the torch, I would think it should be determined if the left side is high or the right side is low. Check dimensions. I would try force to move the wrong side without the use of heat, immobilize the good and apply force to the bad to move it back into correct. Heat may warp upon cooling.

[poorbiker]

TimR,
Ya probably would be better. I have another table with half inch plate steel top I could use, I can weld on it to secure some kind of device to do that. Funny I thought the same thing. Which side is the offending side. I have two other oem frames. One stock 40 knuckle and one 50 Pan that has been raked out. Thought I would just measure one of those to find out which side on mine is off. Niether frame had exactly the same dia. While they both had the opposing sides equall to each other neither was the same as the other nor the same as either side on the one I am working on. All of them off by 3/16" or 1/8" high or low but equall from side to side, used same table, same channel to rest bottom of frame rails, same place on both frames, neither sitting on a weld or cross member, just frame rails, both secured down with clamps. Go figure, alot of movement over the years or just manufactured that way? Or my set up and clamp down system is faulty.There is probably a measurement from maybe the rear trans mount on a level plane and then up to the axle plates? If there is I dont know it. I dont know why but I tend to think its on the brake side.....

[T. Cotten]

Poorboker, before you fire up the torch, I would think it should be determined if the left side is high or the right side is low. Check dimensions. I would try force to move the wrong side without the use of heat, immobilize the good and apply force to the bad to move it back into correct. Heat may warp upon cooling.

Before anybody starts heat'n'beat'n, Folks...

Most of you should know as TimR suggests, that heat is not always a good thing.

Metal has memory.
Heat erases it.

One of my local import speed shops built a sturdy steel cage where a complete machine could be wheeled in, and then secured to the cage in many directions with turnbuckles and extendable members.
With a lazer transit, the vertical planes and horizontal axis could be easily and quickly detected if out of square.

Then additional turnbuckles, screw memblers, jacks, and "porta-power" presses could move the assembled frame back to square, cold.

Sounds expensive, but infinitely cheaper than a total tear-down, repaint, etc.

Keep it simple is the message,
because as any pro welder will tell you,
heat complicates things.

....Cotten

[poorbiker]

Thats all true, have done alot of welding, stick, tig, mig, braze. I have tried many times to remove a bend on a thick piece of metal. And sucessfully, however, the amount of opposite movement it took to make metal stay was considerable. I once tried and eventually removed a 1/4" bend or bow, cold, on a piece of 3/8" plate, it finally took a pressing of 6" the opposite way and then letting it stay in that position for several hours before metal memory accepted bend. Granted in order to apply this force I had the support spacing 4` apart as any closer I lost hydraulic power or advantage, and true it was a solid piece not tubing. Tubing is stronger or resists a complete bend way more than a solid piece of steel, the tubing or pipe has in essence sides to stop the transfer of a strike or forced bend. I`m just a bit worried of cold bending on metal this old and relative to todays thicker .095 tubing. I have seen more cracking than bending on these frames as they have reached 60+ yrs of age. Still Im not thrilled about heating it either. Im not thrilled about waiting 6-7 months untill I could afford to have a frame guy do it right. Sometimes knowing the right way isnt always the way we can go. Bending and rebending can sometimes have the coat hanger effect, it breaks when it has become work hardened. All these old frames that have seen alot of miles have I believe to a certain extent become work hardened. Thats why we see so many cracks in them. Basically Im trying to do the lesser of the two evils.

[knuckleheadtim]

Before I'd try to alter the frame, I'd alter an old axle to change the angle of the wheel. That would allow you to determine if this is the cause of the pull. You can make a mess out of a good frame in a hurry by altering the wrong thing.

You could make a test axle from a later hex-head axle. Mount it in a lathe and cut the step off where it goes through the frame. Then mount it about 1/8" eccentric and cut a new step the same diameter. You could then install the axle and rotate it to get your wheel vertical. If it fixes the pull, you can decide the best way to deal with it. Otherwise, you can look for something else; no harm done.

[poorbiker]

Knucklheadtim,
Thats actually a good idea. I have an old import axle I could use, the side I shave down I will install to the top where it would want to be when weight is on it. That will do for a test ride and tell me if an 1/8"off side to side really is causing the lean or flop, which I have never been completly sure about just the only thing I have found.
I have read some posts of guys riding some pretty twisted bikes that ran straight down the road, leaving me to wonder about an 1/8" diff. thnx. Will give it a try, Keep it simple stupid, I gotta remember that.

[fillibuster]

Your wheels do not need to be in the same plane, they can track left and right as long as they are in a straight line and are parallel (HD XL's are naturally 1/4" out of track). A leaning wheel will pull to the direction it leans. Some of those custom fat tired bikes are out by more than 1/2".

Jerry

Hi Jerry. I decided to reply to your quote as an "in" to the discussion. Seems "reply with quote" works for me, simple "reply" gives problems.
However, I do believe that both wheels and the neck must be in the same plane, ideally. In-line is one thing, but if any wheel leans, it will track in the direction of the lean. Sometimes one has to exaggerate the error to understand. Imagine the neck being 3" left of the vertical plane the wheels are supposed to be in.... the front wheel would understandably lean left, yet a straight edge could align the rims into a straight line. This would yield a poor alignment, and poor handling, imo.

I realized the consequences of owning a Harley Davidson with purchase of a 2003 Road King that pulled left with hands off the bars. Many times I have been told by HD personnel, "Don't take your hands off the bars!!!" .... well, .. shucks, ... on my Indian....

seriously, I re-centered the rear wheel on my Indian about the 1/4" that poorbiker talks about, with very satisfactory results. This after frame-straightening and truing. Center of wheels, and center of neck, all three in a vertical and common plane.

[Steve Little]

Hi Poorbiker. I just read through you'r thread. If you have a 12" rule, place it on top of each of the tubes that run from the axle carriers to the backbone. The tubes should be dead flat on top, from axle carrier to Seatpost cluster.
If it is determined that the rear of the frame is out of alignment, you could make a fairly easy (cost free) adjustment to get the frame closer to original spec. And it will not involve heat. Check the tubes and let us know what you find. You could be looking for as little as 0.010" or up to 1/16" movement under the rule. I will check back tonight to see if you have replied. It's a lovely spring day here, and I have some energy, so I might throw the sheets off my 37 and go for a ride.

[poorbiker]

Hmmm, I dont think Jerry meant the "lean" aspect of this discussion as part of his tracking description.

Well I fixed it.
By taking Knuckleheadtims advice (which worked) I now have one junk to start with now throw away import axle.
After spending the better part of this mourning jiging, strapping, chaining and leveling, re-measuring it turned out
that the wheel was almost 1/4" out (lean) you would have thought that it would have been easy to see but it
wasnt, not by eye.
By taking an 1/8" of the axle flat it made an immediate improvement but still pulling.
As mentioned above after chaining, strapping and leveling I applied some of several suggestions posted here.
I used chain to bind frame down and a come-along to pull axle plate, since both frame rails attach so close
to axle carrier I knew I didnt have or could apply enough force to move carrier without heat, however I used heat
very judiciouly, combination of heat spread out over both rails for about 10" and continueing force via come-along.
Frame was strapped in so well that I was able to set framing square to axle center and mark on it how far I had to
go. Went at it slow, 1 hour I had it pulled down to mark. Let it sit and cool. Put it all back togeather and test rode.
Straight down the road, no pull or flop. Gaaawwwd what a good feeling. Just hope it did not cause more unseen damage
than what I fixed, Thanks for all the advice from everyone. Never hurts to get a fresh look at things.

[poorbiker]

Hey Steve,
Good to here from you. As you will read I got it fixed. And no the tubes were not flat on the affected side as you said how to check it. And unfortunalty I did have to use some heat.
I did not have a way to either hydraulicly or via a come-along and chain make that kind of bend cold. And I was very concerned about any cracking that may have resulted from cold bending. I know you have tons more hands on frame experience than I do but I made the best choice I could. I really didnt have to apply heat to the point of glowing.

But for my education how would you have gone about this woithout heat and a frame jig?

Hows the west nile treaten you..

[Steve Little]

Hi. Glad you got it sorted with the advice from the members.
When I have a frame that has a axle carrier mis-alignment, I determine if I need to move one or both, up or down from the frame centre line.
There is a frame centre line that runs through the centre of the axle carriers and forward through the frame.
All measurements above and below, are taken from this line.
If you secured you'r frame/bike to you'r stand, in a level state, as you described in earlier posts, and tied the high axle carrier down to the table, a car jack or small garage press hydraulic jack is all that would be needed to jack the other axle carrier to the same height. The left side moves easier than the right side. The right side is stronger because of the triangulation that the toolbox bracket provides.
I would only recommend this straightening method as a tempory measure, until you could afford to get it checked proffesioanly. Aside from the handling issue, if you had left the frame, it would have chewed tyres out at a maddening rate.

I have Ross River virus, but during correspondence with people from the U.S. I say it is like West Nile, as it is delivered by a mosquito and some of the symptoms are similar.

As to how I am, There is an old saying "Some days are diamonds, and some days are stones". After riding the 37 up to the Reefton hotel and back, today is a diamond in a pocket of stones.