1939 Frame Help

[mike davis]

Hello, I recently purchase a complete 39 el.The frame appears to be a 38 w/ hallmark and welded brake stay. Any chance this frame was used on a 39. The Vin number is in the 3000's. It also has a 39 tranny case ( correct gears,shift gate ect) but has a vent on case( Recessed) and on the kicker cover. I was told that could be late 39. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

[46EL]

I never really payed too much attention to any original 39 complete bikes and or their serial number ranges. But I do know I had a few 39 trannys and or cases over the years. I have seen some trannys with vented kicker covers and a few cases with the recessed breathers. Originally I thought the recessed breather cases were home made. But I do not think so as I have seen more than one. maybe someone else more knowledgeable can help. 46EL

[Steve Little]

Hi Mike. The frame you are describing was used in 39 production.
I was asked to check, straighten, and re-bush a frame from a "known history" bike that had a sidecar attached to it all of it's life.
Although I can confirm that the frame in question was used with a vin in the 200 range, I cannot (with 100% assurrity) say that it was used up into the 3000 range. Hopefully another member will be able to help you with a closer vin.

This edit is to clarify that there was a frame change in 39. The neck hallmark and revision numbers changed location, and the left axle carrier changed design.

[Jerry Wieland]

Hello, I recently purchase a complete 39 el.The frame appears to be a 38 w/ hallmark and welded brake stay. Any chance this frame was used on a 39. The Vin number is in the 3000's. It also has a 39 tranny case ( correct gears,shift gate ect) but has a vent on case( Recessed) and on the kicker cover. I was told that could be late 39. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

Years ago I bought a bike out of the northwoods of Upper Michigan. Serial number was 39EL1194 and it had a frame just like described here.

I think the tranny is correct for late 39 but not sure the frame carried that far.

Jerry

[mike davis]

Thanks for the info. The story goes the bike has always been together, but you know how stories can be..

[Panuckle]

So is Palmers book wrong? IHave seen An OP winners circle 38 [SN#26xx] revision #3 on the castings.Two years ago in FLA. i saw SN#29xx OP same revision #'s.
They started to weld the caps on open brake stay in 1937 all the way through 1939!.Doesn't make economical bussiness sense to me.
They(HD) knew there was a problem early- on (1937), revised the casting (3rd) after all open brake stay (revision#2) frames were used up in later 1938 production. JMO .John

[Steve Little]

In my experience this is probably the least talked about frame.

John.*
Interested to know what are you referring to in Bruce Palmers book?
*
I will back up your information about the revision number on the neck. The number 3 revision was used for part of 1938 and into part of 1939.

The neck revision number and hallmark changed position later in 1939 to the right hand side of the neck.*
The placement of these markings was just forward of the top tank mount and it can be seen without removing the tanks or cowling.
The size of the hallmark for the later style 39 frame is about 3/16" inch and the revision number is usually number 4. but Wheels Through Time have a (known history) 1939 that has a frame with the small hallmark and a small revision 3. This is the only right hand number 3 revision I have on file. The vin is in the low 3000 range.

On the issue of brake caps, the caps wer'nt welded on to any of the 1937 frames by the HD factory during the 1937 production run.*
All 1937 production frames left the factory with an open brake stay. Some frames 1936 and 1937 frames had the brake stays welded on when they were sent back to the HD factory for warranty issues.
The brake cap was used well into production of 1939 until the new style axle carrier was brought into production.

A peculiarity of 1939 frames is the ends of the top tubes.*
Where the tubes end on the backbone, quite a few don't have the radius.
All of 1937 frames, 1938 frames, and all of 1940 frames have the nice radiused end, but quite a lot of the 1939 frames have un-radiused ends.*

[Panuckle]

Hello steve.,you have made many statements that we are supposed to take as fact but you have backed these up with no proof.Read page 31 in palmers book carefully. i'm pretty sure he didn't get every thing wrong on that page.There is more info much further in the book.I will post the page # later.I've had a keen interest in 36 to 40 frames for the past 7or 8 years so i scrutinize them carefully.Three years ago at one of the nationals a 39 with revision 2 (welded brake stay cap)was DQ'ed . More later.

With absolute respect John

[jwl]

I don't profess to know what is right or wrong as to the correct frame for a 39 but I can tell what happened to me. I had 39EL3671 restored using the frame with the welded brake stay and the radiused end caps Steve Little has referenced. I took the bike to the Viking National Meet to have it judged about 10 years ago. The bike got judged and scored in the upper 90's. A member of the judging team questioned my use of that particular frame but was overruled by the others on the team. The team member that thought the frame was incorrect for my serial number contacted then chief judge K. Valentine to protest and chief Valentine conferred with "knuckle experts" and decided my bike should have been disqualified. About a month later I recieved a letter from chief Valentine telling me what had transpired and he asked me to return the award I had recieved at the meet. I didn't have any documentation to support my position so I complied with Valentine's request. I then used that frame to build a 38EL and obtained a frame with the cast in brake stay and the unradiused end caps for my 39. It took Matt Olsen and myself 5 hours to swap out the frames on the 39. I then had it judged again with no problems. John Lindemann

[Jerry Wieland]

I don't profess to know what is right or wrong as to the correct frame for a 39 but I can tell what happened to me. I had 39EL3671 restored using the frame with the welded brake stay and the radiused end caps Steve Little has referenced. I took the bike to the Viking National Meet to have it judged about 10 years ago. The bike got judged and scored in the upper 90's. A member of the judging team questioned my use of that particular frame but was overruled by the others on the team. The team member that thought the frame was incorrect for my serial number contacted then chief judge K. Valentine to protest and chief Valentine conferred with "knuckle experts" and decided my bike should have been disqualified. About a month later I recieved a letter from chief Valentine telling me what had transpired and he asked me to return the award I had recieved at the meet. I didn't have any documentation to support my position so I complied with Valentine's request. I then used that frame to build a 38EL and obtained a frame with the cast in brake stay and the unradiused end caps for my 39. It took Matt Olsen and myself 5 hours to swap out the frames on the 39. I then had it judged again with no problems. John Lindemann

John I do not really know and it is most unfortunate that you had to give your award back but I think you ended up with the right frame for your engine number. The Vikings Chapter judges were probably in the wrong allowing it to pass the first time.

Jerry

[Steve Little]

Hi John.
Heres some quick answers below. Your original posts in blue and my answer in black below it.
I will get to the Palmers book when I have time tonight.
I repsect your quest for proof, as it is a far better logic, rather than simply accept what is written in a book.

Hello Steve.
You have made many statements that we are supposed to take as fact, but you have backed these up with no proof.
Hi John.
Can you specify which (many statements) you would like me to address, and I will do my best.

Three years ago at one of the nationals a 39 with revision 2 (welded brake stay cap) was DQ'ed .
I agree with the judges. A 1939 bike wont have a number 2 revision neck.
Known history 39UL111X Left side number 3 revision neck. Welded brake cap.


The attached picture shows the end of the top tubes. I have seen this on 4 1939 frames. I am unable to check this on assembled bikes so my research is limited. Known history 39EL376X Righthand neck revision #4 New style axle carrier.
This same style end was common on 1936 as well

The picture of the two axle carriers shows the difference in the two styles. The red arrows point to the swoopy radius of the 1936, 1937, 1938, and some of 1939. The rusty axle carrier is the shape of the later 1939.

[Steve Little]

The end of my text (This same style end was common on 1936 as well) relates to the end of the tubes being un-radiused.
I tried to change it in edit but the change didnt stick for some reason.

[Panuckle]

Hi John.
Heres some quick answers below. Your original posts in blue and my answer in black below it.
I will get to the Palmers book when I have time tonight.
I repsect your quest for proof, as it is a far better logic, rather than simply accept what is written in a book.

Hello Steve.
You have made many statements that we are supposed to take as fact, but you have backed these up with no proof.
Hi John.
Can you specify which (many statements) you would like me to address, and I will do my best.

Three years ago at one of the nationals a 39 with revision 2 (welded brake stay cap) was DQ'ed .
I agree with the judges. A 1939 bike wont have a number 2 revision neck.
Known history 39UL111X Left side number 3 revision neck. Welded brake cap.


The attached picture shows the end of the top tubes. I have seen this on 4 1939 frames. I am unable to check this on assembled bikes so my research is limited. Known history 39EL376X Righthand neck revision #4 New style axle carrier.
This same style end was common on 1936 as well

The picture of the two axle carriers shows the difference in the two styles. The red arrows point to the swoopy radius of the 1936, 1937, 1938, and some of 1939. The rusty axle carrier is the shape of the later 1939.

HI steve . Read pg 27,top right, under the photo.(no hallmark).
Page 31 second full paragraph. I was refering to the axle carrier not the neck(A 39 bike won't have a#2 rev. neck).You said the caps were not welded on the brake stay at any time in 1937 . Can you prove that statment with fact? The two OP bikes i spoke of have rev.3 embossed with small hallmark onthe left side of the neck and axel carrier.I have a 38 el (SN 3xxx) that has the same frame as these two OP bikes.So for close to all of 38-39 prodution Hd had people welding these caps onto these frames? I doubt it.Because i said so is not good enough .I need solid proof.
Your frames and castings are as close to perfection as one can get.
Another point before i sign off.I have owned and ridden my 58 flh for 35 years now.I was hit head on by a drunk teenager once and hit broadside a second time.My ride was Written- off with pretzelled frame each time.Frames were cheap at the so i replaced them with one that would work.
Respectfully,John

[Steve Little]

Hi John.*
Appologies, but I don't have the energy, nor the inclination to read and comment on the frame section in the How to Restore book at the moment.
The Ross river virus is pounding me. *
Maybe some other person will take the time answer some of you'r questions.
Respectfully Steve.

[Jerry Wieland]

John Sometimes what we are trying to prove has been lost to time but in general Steve does a very thorough job on his research. While I appreciate Bruce's book he is trying to cover a whole range of bikes in all aspects while all Steve covers is frames and he does it well.

I also believe that no or at least very few 1937 BT bike frame stays were welded from the factory. The only 2 I have ever seen welded were very obviously welded after assembly and damage. One of them actually used a bolt as the connecting piece.

I have an original late production 1937 chassis that is not welded (sorry no motor therefore no motor number). It is complete except for the motor, transmission and gas tanks. I feel it is late because it also has the 1 inch strut under the neck. If anybody is interested in pictures of any part of it I could take a few.

I also agree with Steve that most (maybe all) of 1938 and into 1939 the factory used welded rear frame stays and I do not understand how or why this could have happened but 35 years of observing original bikes this is the opinion I have come up with. Is it proof - absolutely not but it is the best that we probably can do.

I have not done any research on revision numbers so I cannot provide any input to that.

Jerry