H-D Large Part Parkerizing or bonderizing

[40 Nuck]

It's my understanding that H-D large parts like fenders and tanks were parkerized before pimer and paint. It's also my understanding that the large parts were actually "bonderized" which was a manganese "spray". I may be wrong on this, and if so, please let me know. I guess my question is ... is there a vendor out there that can parkerize or bonderize such large parts correctly? While this isn't something a judge would see, I still think it is worth exploring.

Also, while it wouldn't be seen by a judge, what color primer would have been typical in 1940? It seems that I've seen original paint bikes with either a rust color primer and/or a cream color primer. Or does it depend on the paint color? Any research or info would be very much appreciated.

Thank you.
Vic

[Chris Haynes]

I have some NOS 1941-1946 Knuck tanks that were produced in the Panhead era. The tanks are Parkerized inside and out. Then they were shot with Red Oxide primer. Note that the primer only comes up about 3/16" on the gas neck and not all the way to the top. A few years ago I had some tanks parkerized at Los Angeles Parkerizing. I don't know if they are still around or not. But simply Google Parkerizing and a major city near you and I am sure you will find someone.

Los Angeles Parkerizing Co Inc
8205 S ALAMEDA ST
Los Angeles, California
90001

[jwl]

I've often wondered about the primer on the bikes that came from the factory too. I know some spare parts like gas tanks were primed in red oxide primer because I have had some also. However it seems that on original paint bikes there is only a black primer under the paint. I don't ever remember seeing red oxide under original paint. That doesn't mean it's not there but I'm just saying I've never seen it. Has anyone else?

[40 Nuck]

Thanks Chris & jwl ... the info on the red oxide primer and 3/4 up the filler neck are great helps. I think the red oxide is what I've noticed the most, but now that jwl mentioned it, I think I've seen some very dark primer (or maybe the parkerizing?) under some original paint. Your NOS tank info is a great source, Chris. Maybe someone else can comment on their original paint or NOS fenders.

[40 Nuck]

Just remembered the Colorwrite site has pics, and many of original paint parts. Looks like the fenders, for the most part, have the red oxide primer (dove gray fender pics show this pretty well). Thanks for the tip on the LA parkerizing , too, Chris. Seems I can find a lot of parkerizers in my area, but cant seem to get a good answer from them on large parts. If I can;t get something local, I'll look up the LA Parkerizing. Thanks.

[vph-d]

All the NOS primer tanks I've seen were finished in a dark red oxide primer with the filler cap neck as mentioned. The parkerizing inside the tank was clearly visible. I agree with JWL about the color under OP paint. I'm not sure if it was black primer or just the parkerization showing on the neck.
VPH-D

[Steve Little]

The following info relates to frames only. The frames were parkerized and painted gloss black. No primer.
(Maybe the parkerizing could have been done at the end of the welding line to incorporate the residual heat)....this line of information is supposition, and is not backed by fact.

Following areas are listed as free of paint: Bearing cup area, dash base pads, engine and trans mounting surfaces. This info is listed on the drawings.
Chris posted a marvelous picture of the frame painting booth a while back, but I didn't think to look for masking tape at the time.

[Chris Haynes]

[QUOTE=Steve Little;132179]The following info relates to frames only. The frames were parkerized and painted gloss black. No primer.
(Maybe the parkerizing could have been done at the end of the welding line to incorporate the residual heat)....this line of information is supposition, and is not backed by fact.QUOTE]

Fact!
These Knucklehead frames have come directly from the brazing area to be painted. No masking and no Parkerizing.

[Steve Little]

Chris, It is times like this, you have me scratching my head in amazement.
Why would you be confrontational, with words like Fact! followed with a bold sentence, like you’re a 100% sure.
Unless that is you standing there with the spray gun in your hand, you have based your Fact! on a simple guess from your picture.

I’m drawing on 25 years of experience of pulling these frames apart and have seen the parkerizing on the frames.
Anyone can, if some of the original paint is scratched off or look at the speedo base pads of an original paint frame. You can see the darkness of the parkerizing.

In addition, I am using the original blueprint to back up my information, except where I use the word (supposition) which means I am clearly stating that I am guessing at a procedure that is not written down.

Printed on bottom left corner of original frame blue print, as follows:
Draw to Rockwell C-20 C-30.
Soak for one hour at drawing temperature.
Parkerize.
Enamel black.

In that order.
Regards Steve

[Chris Haynes]

Steve,
Obviously these frames in my picture were not Parkerized. Nor were they masked. These are for the 1939 models. I do have some 1950's H-D literature boasting about their Bonderizing process. An old time dealer once told me that the pre war frames were painted with Black Zinc Chromate paint to prevent rust. But as you have pointed out I wasn't there. But I do have to wonder why a photographer taking pictures for the factory tour book would have them bring in bare metal frames for him to shoot. That doesn't sound logical. But I am 100% sure of what I see in this picture.
A friend has a factory Panhead frame blueprint. It has many additions and changes on it. All are dated. This is great information for dating what frame variation should be on a particular machine. Is there a date by the Parkerizing note on yours? What year was your print drawn?

[MMasa]

The frames look to have a matte black finish in high contrast to the braze joints to me. They also look to have a bit of a mottled look to the tubes. These frames do not look raw to me. I would say that they clearly look like they are Parkerized. Chris, I assume that you have a high resolution version of this pic. Why not make that one available for us to look at?
Mark Masa

[Rollo]

Does any one know if parkerizing will adhere/ work on brass? That may be the reason that the brazing looks different from the rest of the frame. I don't know that answer to this but I think about the old rifles that had parkering and brass mixed together but each was it's own finish. Just thowing it out as a possiblity.

Tom (Rollo) Hardy
AMCA #12766

[Steve Little]

Hi Chris.
Apologies for the delayed response. I saw your post late last night, but I have been busy with work this morning and I wanted to show the 1938 rear frame section without paint.

On the issue of masking tape. Can I suggest that you re-read my first mention of it, and view it in the context that it is written.

There is no doubting that you have some interesting pictures of the Harley Davidson factory.
But it should be kept in mind that the pictures are mostly staged shots which are set up for possible use in literature and in some cases, intended for the private posterity of the owners.

The photographer or HD exec who directed the shot, wanted to give an impression of busy, and congested and has put the frame cart right behind the painter. There are no worn tracks on the ground, so it doesn’t normally go there.
Also, a ¾ empty cart doesn’t carry much photographic impact, so a full cart has been pushed into position for the picture.
If you are right about these frames not having a coating yet, it may simply be, they grabbed a full cart from somewhere else for the shot.

The spray painter is blowing paint through the middle of the frame and, not on it.
I would ask the question why?
Has he been instructed, not to get paint on it?

There is no denying it is an interesting picture.
But it is not factual proof of non Parkerized frames.
I quoted the information from the 1940 frame blueprint. The side bar of alterations is not legible so I cannot give you a date or the signing officers initial.

I have an (original paint) rear section of a 1938 frame stored here.
I have taken a (before, and after) picture of the frame tube.
I used some gasket stripper to remove the paint.
The cleaned area shows the darkened metal coating which is below the paint.

Rollo. When I pull the frames apart the brazing colour inside a weld is still the original bright gold.
But the areas that have been effected by Parkerizing are much duller.

Regards Steve.

[Steve Little]

[QUOTE=40 Nuck;132167]It's my understanding that H-D large parts like fenders and tanks were parkerized before pimer and paint. It's also my understanding that the large parts were actually "bonderized" which was a manganese "spray". I may be wrong on this, and if so, please let me know. I guess my question is ... is there a vendor out there that can parkerize or bonderize such large parts correctly? While this isn't something a judge would see, I still think it is worth exploring.

Vic.
Have a look at the thread (A Look Back at the Harley Davidson Factory) in Parking lot.
It shows one of the fender spray booths in action.

[40 Nuck]

Thanks for all of the input and discussion, guys ... very helpful. I won't be doing my frame anytime soon, but for those who are, there's lots to noodle on. Also, thanks for the direction to the HD Spray Booth pics, Steve ... very helpful. Hoping to have my fenders treated to the original process from raw to paint.