control connection block and carburetor control rod question

[Tommo]

Here's the page concerned

[T. Cotten]

Thanks, Tommo!

But I must ask about the MK88A and LK744,..
Since model body sizes were called a nominal 1" Model (which were actually 1 3/16" for a DLX), or a 1 1/4" Model (actually 1 3/8" diameter for a DLX), are you sure those weren't supposed to be HX Models with 1 1/8" and 1 3/8" bores?

Or is the 1 1/8" a misprint?

I'm so easily confused,

....Cotten

[Tommo]

When using HD parts books it is essential you use every year to determine when different parts were introduced.
As I said previously the De Luxe does not appear in the 1920 to 1924 edition but does appear in the 1921 to 1925 edition.
Release date for the 1921 to 25 edition is stated on the cover as "Issued September 1st, 1924"
As this book was produced in 1924 to cover the new 1925 models it's reasonable to assume that the factory would use some -24 part numbers to cover parts being introduced for the new model year.
If we look at the carburettor section in the 1921 to 1925 Spare Parts Manual we see the following;

MK88A - Schebler De Luxe 1"3/8 - 1921 to 1923 74"motors, 1924 and 1925
LK744 - Schebler De Luxe 1"1/8 - 1917 to 1923 61" motors

From this you can see that the Motor Company documented that the LK744 could be retro fitted to bikes as far back as 1917 so my question is, does this make a De Luxe a correct fitment on a 17?
To answer my own question, No it doesn't, but it does provide us with an excellent example of how careful you have to be when using parts manuals and their so called dash year suffix's to determine when exactly a part was introduced.
Attached is photos of what Frank Jones of Jones Brothers the HD Importers of the time called his bible. This is a bound collection of every HD issued Parts Manual from 1915 to 1932.
I am lucky enough to own this "Bible" and it is from this I have gleaned a lot of my knowledge.
What I'm really trying to say is that to make hard and fast statements as to what is right or wrong is very difficult but if you use the resources available you can come to some very accurate assumptions.
I hope this is not boring everybody but at the moment I'm not able to walk too well so sitting here annoying you guys is about all I can do.
Very frustrating as I'd much rather be out in my workshop.

[T. Cotten]

Steve and All!

Modern sources such as Indianmotorbikes.com (link is dead) cite DLX12 for the '15-'24 61"s, DLX20 for '21-'24 74"s, and pushes earlier DLX production back to '12 for Excelsior. (Indian is listed to adopt them one year after H-D.)
It also lists the HX160 for 1915-24 61", and HX181 for 1921-25 74".

HX models are listed to cease about '25, with only the Indian Scout (which also was provided with DLXs) survived for '26, perhaps '27.

The starting instructions that Tommo posted refers to the lowspeed needle lift lever that appeared with the Type B DLX; Earlier Type As (and GXs) instead had lowspeed needles that could be pulled out in their knobs to rest on a detente (And there were at least two kinds of those, not counting different lengths.)

One might imagine that since HXs coexisted with DLXs for perhaps more than a decade, there must have been some reluctance for consumers to adopt the newfangled DeLuXe.

....Cotten

[Steve Slocombe]

Harley always gives the 1 1/4" carbs and many components a -24 part number, so maybe the DLX came out in 1924, possibly for the 1925 model year, or as a late change in the 1924 model year.

[Steve Swan]

I sure won't ride mine like they did 90 years ago. With paved roads, a heated garage, and my loving to keep the old fellow in top fettle, he has a very privileged life. Just reward for surviving 90 years.

[Tommo]

In my opinion not a lot until you get right to the top end of the scale and then the De Luxe has the edge.
Really though how many of us ride these old girls flat out any more.

[Steve Swan]

Comparing the H and DLX models in terms of overall running and performance, what if any differences would the rider rider be able to notice?

[Tommo]

My guess is that it was still optional in 1927.
HX standard fitment and De Luxe as an option.
The strange thing is that the order sheets, as printed in "The Legend Begins", do not give you any carb options during the period we're talking about.
Even the Accessory Catalogues give you no clue.
Right up to the last one covering 1929 they list both H series and DLX series carbs but do not say which one is the original fitment carb.
In my humble opinion I think that from 1925 on you would be really sticking your neck out if you started being pedantic about what carb should be fitted as the availability of options at time make it very difficult

[Steve Swan]

As to when Model H's stopped being fitted and De Luxe's took over can be narrowed down quite a bit.
The evidence is out there for most or all to see if you go looking for it.
The 1921 to 1925 HD Parts Directory, released 1st September 1924, has the first mention of the De Luxe carb so it is reasonable to assume that 1925 was the first year that the Motor Company offered the De Luxe carb as an option.
If we go to the Supplement for the 1929 Riders Handbook we will find on the bottom of page 9 the attachment I've posted here.
If you read it you will see that 1926 and earlier (I deduce 1925 and 1926) Harley used the early style De Luxe carbs and 1927 and later used the later style carb with the cam on the end of the choke shaft.
The 1921 Schebler Manual has no mention of De Luxe carbs but they are in the 1925 Schebler Manual.
From this we can deduce that they appeared on the market somewhere between 1922 and 1925 and my money is on 1925 as the year HD first offered them.
The 1928 model release details in the Enthusiast show the late style De Luxe carb as standard fitment.
There's some of the evidence that's out there so you make up your own mind as to what and when.

Tommo, thank you for your great reply.

However, i may not have been clear in my question. I was wondering if the DeLuxe Schebler was an option in 1927? and the H model was maybe standard, considering the pictures of my Dad's bike appears to have an H type on it. As i am sure you know, the '27 Rider's Handbook gives tuning instructions for the H and DLX models.

[Tommo]

As to when Model H's stopped being fitted and De Luxe's took over can be narrowed down quite a bit.
The evidence is out there for most or all to see if you go looking for it.
The 1921 to 1925 HD Parts Directory, released 1st September 1924, has the first mention of the De Luxe carb so it is reasonable to assume that 1925 was the first year that the Motor Company offered the De Luxe carb as an option.
If we go to the Supplement for the 1929 Riders Handbook we will find on the bottom of page 9 the attachment I've posted here.
If you read it you will see that 1926 and earlier (I deduce 1925 and 1926) Harley used the early style De Luxe carbs and 1927 and later used the later style carb with the cam on the end of the choke shaft.
The 1921 Schebler Manual has no mention of De Luxe carbs but they are in the 1925 Schebler Manual.
From this we can deduce that they appeared on the market somewhere between 1922 and 1925 and my money is on 1925 as the year HD first offered them.
The 1928 model release details in the Enthusiast show the late style De Luxe carb as standard fitment.
There's some of the evidence that's out there so you make up your own mind as to what and when.

[T. Cotten]

Tommo!

I also have encountered HX181s with both sizes of bowls. The tiny bowls with 3/4" bowlstem holes are just another enigma to me.

Nearly all of my requests are to "conserve", and not "restore" hardware, so often I am compelled to use what is supplied, especially when there was a family provenance. I haven't any 181s on the bench currently, and all of my photo library shows complete assemblies, covering the bowlstem.

We can only be certain that production varied widely, and posterity wasn't often kind.

....Cotten

[Steve Swan]

I think we're having a wonderful conversation and i am really grateful for the knowledge and expertise you guys are all sharing. If someone wants to start a VL carb thread, go for it ! i'm a later model JD guy, so thanks again for the time you're giving to my questions!

[Tommo]

Tom I do understand.
I'm looking at 9 at present but the reality is that there is not longer an infinitive supply of these things and carbs we would have once thrown under the bench because we had a better one in stock, we now have to pull out and fix.
Yes it's a pain but if you have a real passion for this hobby you will repair anything.
For others that are interested there are eight HX181's and one HX180 in the photo.
Two are finished, three bodies have been cleaned awaiting overhaul and the other four are as received and awaiting overhaul.
Of the cleaned ones the one on the extreme right is a early HX181 on the HX149 casting.
These early 181's have the smaller dia float bowl. This is not the first one of these I've seen and yes it's stamped HX181
All the other HX181's in the photo are on HX165 castings.
For those looking for it you will find the casting number on the stem that the float bowl covers.
Now I've strayed off subject and deserve a clip round the ear for doing exactly what I criticized Steve for doing.
Sorry Guys and Gals.

[exeric]

Spin it any way you want, Tom.