H-D Production IoE V-twins 1909-1929

[Steve Swan]

Thanks Eric, for your reply. What would have been the last year for the pentagonal (i am assuming) battery/tool box? i have a quite a few pics that have the pentagonal box, and are called 17, 18, and 19 models, then the 20's have the square box again. so, i am guessing whoever assigned a year to these photos didn't know what they were looking at or did the factory go back and forth with the rectangular and pentagonal boxes, because in Hatfield's book, Inside Harley Davidson, between years 16-24, various years are one or the other shape.

so, here's what are called a 1917 model. Is it a 1917? What was first year for tool box on top of tank? 1917 LH.jpg1917.jpg

Another question, the rear brake, was it an internally expanding shoe design? Inner mechanisms seem pretty well covered up compared to the externally contracting brake on later models.

[exeric]

Mark Masa could better answer the toolbox/batter box evolution questions, but I believe that tool box went well into the 1920s and probably until H-D no longer offered a magneto model. What I mean is; you got a battery box (square box) with an electric model, and the angular box, you called a pentagonal box was used on all non-electric, or magneto models. When you got an electric model, the toolbox was mounted on top of the gas tanks as you can see on the 1920J picture you posted, and this 1917 J picture. Phew! Early Js went through many, many tiny detail changes, but barely changed on the outside.

The picture you posted could well be a 1917, and this bike has the very rare Remy electrical system. The most distinguishing feature to appear in 1917 was the rear stand, and you can readily see the difference when you compare it to the 1916 Js. There were many subtle changes in 1917, most of which were in the frame. The early J era can be very confusing, as the 1916 - 1920 Js were very similar at first glance. Changes were more pronounced in '21 when H-D introduced the 74".

[Steve Swan]

Wow and phew for sure! that first paragraph is a mind boggler! would be great to hear Mark's comments.

so here are what are purported to be 1918 pictures. one good, one not so good and one i think we have seen before...1918 LH.jpg1918.jpg1918J Army.jpg

[Steve Swan]

Mark Masa could better answer the toolbox/batter box evolution questions, but I believe that tool box went well into the 1920s and probably until H-D no longer offered a magneto model. What I mean is; you got a battery box (square box) with an electric model, and the angular box, you called a pentagonal box was used on all non-electric, or magneto models. When you got an electric model, the toolbox was mounted on top of the gas tanks as you can see on the 1920J picture you posted, and this 1917 J picture. Phew! Early Js went through many, many tiny detail changes, but barely changed on the outside.

The picture you posted could well be a 1917, and this bike has the very rare Remy electrical system. The most distinguishing feature to appear in 1917 was the rear stand, and you can readily see the difference when you compare it to the 1916 Js. There were many subtle changes in 1917, most of which were in the frame. The early J era can be very confusing, as the 1916 - 1920 Js were very similar at first glance. Changes were more pronounced in '21 when H-D introduced the 74".

Also, i found these in another file, i think 1917? 100_6962.jpgJoe Drociuk.jpg

[Steve Swan]

and here are what are stated as 1915 models.

Are these 1915 models? [ATTACH=CONFIG]20971[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]20972[/ATTACH]

so, then i found more pics of he bike on the right in another file i had 15 J.jpg15J LH.jpg15J.jpg

[exeric]

Wow and phew for sure! that first paragraph is a mind boggler! would be great to hear Mark's comments.

so here are what are purported to be 1918 pictures. one good, one not so good and one i think we have seen before...[ATTACH=CONFIG]21199[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]21200[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]21201[/ATTACH]

If you look at the order blanks Robbie posted earlier, they help to define the difference between the 'F' model (magneto), and the 'J' model (electric).

Regarding the pictures you posted of 1918s. The last of the 3 is most probably a 1918, however, it started out as a full electric, but lost it's Remy unit at some point in it's life. That bike came out of Georgia and recently someone here on this forum had bought it and was trying to get information about it.

[MMasa]

not much to add.
Eric's posts are pretty much spot on.
Mark

[Steve Swan]

Well, i'll keep kicking this sucker til i run out of pictures. here are what are said to be 1919 pics. i only have two.1919 LH.jpg1919.jpg

[Steve Swan]

here are some o.p. pics of what is supposed to be 1920 models, perhaps these pics will be more interesting because they are original machines. i tried to find pics of original machines whenever i could, but not that easy. as the years advance, we'll be seeing a few more o.p. machines than restored. i'm going to wait til we hear from John Brookes in England, before i post later years. i also now clearly see the diff between mag and gen models as far as the battery vs. tool box shapes goes. if you triple click on the mag model bike, the pics enlarge pleasantly.

1920 0.jpg1920 1.jpg1920 2.jpg1920 3.jpg1920 4.jpg

[Steve Slocombe]

Here's a late reply on beryllium copper. I have some scrap left after cutting out the 1926-36 Harley dash contacts.

[T. Cotten]

How thick is it, Steve?

....Cotten

[TechNoir]

Hello All, I see my name mentioned above. Steve, great pictures of OP machines. Eric is spot on re the tool box/battery box differences between the F and the J models. Here are 1920 brochure pictures of the two showing the same differences (I have posted these previously but these are better quality)

It is my understanding that 1920 is the last year of the separate front and rear brake in the USA (the front brake was an option in the USA) and in 1921 there was a rocker pedal so you could only use one at a time.

Also, as I mentioned a few pages previously, the UK models had the front brake and the front stand as standard whereas the front brake and front stand were an option in the USA. The rear rack was standard in the UK too, was it standard or an option in the USA?

In the UK the speedometer was an option priced at £5 10/. My bike had it fitted and it is the Johns Manville type which Eric informs me is even rarer than the usual speedometer found in the USA which is the Corbin type. The Johns Manville speedo is very similar to the one found in Model T Fords which is a common instrument and anyone wanting to fit one could adapt a Ford item to look very authentic.







John

[Tommo]

Toolboxes are another one of those minefields that affect 1916 to 1924 electric model Harleys.
I've posted pictures of both the narrow and wide versions.
You'll see the wide version has provision for an ammeter mount on the top and is the later 1922/23 version with clips to locate the wires from the ammeter.
I've seen both narrow and wide versions with no provision for the ammeter and conversely I have seen both with the raised mount for the ammeter.
When you go chasing answers in the parts book you just get more confused as the factory used the same numbers as they changed the styles.
What's right for what year is a bit of a mystery to me but I do know that the wide one in my pictures came off a 1923 J model Harley.
My 1920 has the narrow one with no ammeter mount present but a nice original 1918 here in NZ has the narrow one with the ammeter mount.
I know there are at least 4 different styles of toolboxes that were fitted to big twin Harleys between 1916 to 1924 and I'm not game to say exactly which one is correct for any of those years.

[Tommo]

The 4 pictures I've posted here are all from original HD Factory Sales Brochures and show 1916, 1917, 1919 and 1921 Electric model Harleys.
From these images you will see no evidence of any raised platform for the ammeter to mount to but there are plenty of both narrow and wide toolboxes in existence with ammeter mounts so where do they fit into the picture?
Your call.

[TechNoir]

Hello Tommo, I think factories only listed significant changes for a new model year. My 39 model Triumph has a few small differences from the 1938 model that are not listed in the official list of changes between the years. I suspect that a lot of manufacturers were the same so therefore the only way of working out all of the differences is to find original machines which, after 100 years, is a tall order.

This is one of the reasons why I wouldn't do shows. A doubt that most judges would be aware of all of the subtle changes in a bike between years.

John