internal rear brake setup

[Steve Swan]

Here's a couple of photos of the 4 different brake locks that I have.
As far as I know they are all factory HD produced.
The old guys reckoned that your trouser leg got caught on the 3 long ones and that the later short one was the best of the lot

Thanks Tommo !

my "front brake idea" is on the "back burner." for time being i've decided i'm going to ride the bike with the rear brake and take some time to consider options for front brake possiblities.

[TechNoir]

Hi Tommo, my 20F came with a sidecar and the shorter of the 4 ratchet stops that you show in your picture. (in fact it came with the original one and also a NOS one)

This is the one that you describe as the later one but it is also the same one that is shown in my up to 1921 parts list. (described as a "brake lock"). It is shown in the sidecar section which makes sense.

Did this one start around about 1920 or 21 and the other, longer ones, were just for the teens?

John

[Tommo]

Here's a couple of photos of the 4 different brake locks that I have.
As far as I know they are all factory HD produced.
The old guys reckoned that your trouser leg got caught on the 3 long ones and that the later short one was the best of the lot

[Tommo]

If it was a park brake how was it held on.
The park brake operated on the front brake pedal.

[ChrisLewis]

Internal rear brake

Steve
I have been looking at the same option, from what I have gathered the internal brake was a parking brake, and was operated by a separate pedal located towards the rear of the footboard, these where evident on a couple of bikes at the Raalte show in Holland, however I did not get to talk to the owners, one guy told me they where more common on sidecar models.
Don't take this as 100% but it seems to stack up to me !
Chris L

[Steve Swan]

Glad to hear all comments. It seems the externally contracting rear band brake by it's self can do the job IF set up correctly.

I would appreciate hearing about proper setup of those spring-like flexible bands with new lining on the very rigid brake drum. How to set up the most possible surface area of band/lining in contact with the drum ??? Help me understand how arcing can be accomplished (is it even possible) on this type of flexible band that is pulled tight against the drum, very different in function when contrasted to an internally expanding set of shoes actuated by a cam making direct contact with the shoes.....?

Also..... brake band lining composition. Tommo is lucky enough to have original stock. I am using the fiber with metal wire impregnated in the lining, sold by Johnny Sells. Is there a particular lining folks use or is Johnny's lining what is used by people ?

I want to ride my bike. Based on Tommo's experience, it seems my brake may not be operating to it's full capacity. I'd appreciate being what i need to do to set it up properly.

Yup. Agreed, looking ahead and not down is one of the basics of driving a motorcycle. I am extremely confident in my riding ability. I can only tell you point blank, Fort Collin's drivers are rude and drive at will wherever, however and whenever they damn well please. I've probably ridden a half million road miles and my one accident was being stupid on my Ducati vs big horn sheep 60 miles west of here, up Poudre Canyon. My other accident was when i was 22 driving West and a 16 year old driving East made a sudden unsignaled left turn in front of me. And i have taught begining Rider's courses. Anyway....

If there's more performance i can get out of that rear brake, i need help being told what can be done to get more grip. Basically, i riveted on new lining on original bands and installed the bands on the actuating mechanism. The bands are centered on the drum, so i have full purchase of all available surface area to drum, at least as far as width goes.

What i may be lacking is as much as is possible surface area of the linings on the circumference of the drum when the brake pedal is fully depressed.

Most of my buddies, like me, only ride in Fort Collins to get out of town. If i could live in the country, i would, but separating from my wife's not in the plan. Oh well. Here we are. Thank you and looking forward to hearing what is proper procedure for rear brake set up on the 1927 JD.

I have never ridden a J era motorcycle until this one. So, i don't have any era appropriate baseline for comparison of my bike's braking ability to another of the same design.

[exeric]

That's funny, Bob; because I've done just that with a 1920J. I've blamed it on the Coker clinchers, but maybe I should have done something to keep the tire glued to the rim. One guy suggested that I use contact cement on the rim when I mounted the tire. Another guy said I should have filed teeth into the rim. I've also heard that clinchers from that era had tougher sidewalls and held better. I would like to hear from Tommo and get his opinions. I'm joking about it, but that is a real concern.

[Robert Luland]

At the same time is it not possible to lock the brake up and take a clincher right off the rim?

[exeric]

I've owned a lot of old motorcycles and only two of them had "good" brakes (my wife's new Sportster, and a '69FLH with a later disc). I've always ridden ahead of where I'm going, so emergency braking hasn't been an issue. The 3 bad accidents I have been the victim of, were the result of blind idiots who didn't see me (so they say). Those accidents had nothing to do with brakes because there is nothing you can do when someone carelessly drives their car into your lane, or turns in front of your lane of traffic. However, having decent brakes does give the rider a better feeling of security, and I think when we build our bikes, we should put effort into properly arcing the shoes, and using an appropriate lining.

[TechNoir]

I have the "Export" setup on my 20F and whilst my experience is virtually nothing compared to others commenting on here I do have some observations to share.

Before I took the engine apart I did do a total of about 15 miles on it, not huge but enough to make some comments.

I agree with Eric that, on the earlier J's, the external band operated by a hand lever that was offered as an extra on the home market and was required on some export models is fairly ineffective. It just about stops the bike from rolling on a hill but that is it. If the bike is moving then it seems to do almost nothing.

The internal expanding brake that is operated by a pedal on the earlier bikes is much better. In comparison to my 1938 Triumph I would say that, based on my small amount of experience, it is about 66% as effective as the 1938 bike which has a much more modern style drum brake.

As has been said above, lots of export markets legally required 2 separate brakes so in 1927 there must surely have been a second brake available as an optional extra.

John

[Tommo]

I'd like to know how many miles those of you that are rubbishing these brakes have actually ridden pre 1928 J model Harleys.
It's all too easy to condemn something you have never used or that a mate of a mate told you that they don't work.
Dad, when he was alive, along with myself and one of my brothers have done thousands of miles on these bikes and set up properly they work just fine.
Yes they are not as good as modern brakes but the J model doesn't preform like a 1950s/60s motorcycle so you don't need the brakes that they need.
Yes you need to exercise caution if you're riding in traffic but you should be doing that any time you ride an old machine in modern traffic.
In 2003 seven of us did, in 21 days, a combined mileage of close on 30,000 miles across America and none of that seven had any incidents in traffic that would cause you to doubt the brakes.
And just to clear a point we rode them all the way from Vancouver (Canada) to Chicago.
What I'm saying here is what I said right at the start, set up properly, with the right linings, these brakes will pass a modern brake efficiency test.

[Steve Swan]

In the words of Mark Masa a few years ago. "Two things that don't work, don't make one that does."

i would agree Bob !

i am leaning towards coming up with a front brake setup. i need to give it some study and thought, though. whatever i would use to clamp from the fork to the front backing plate of the brake, i would want it to be simple and effective. simple from the standpoint i can install and remove without a lot of fuss and no alteration to front fork. effective from the standpoint that there is adequate stopping power at no risk of damaging front forks. would like to find a front brake that would look as sort of period correct as possible. would need to be 40 hole hub and i would want to stay with a clincher rim. i believe most British bikes out of 50's and 60's had 40 hole hubs, a small-ish single leading shoe off a 250 or the like. or something out of the 60's-70's-early 80's Japanese dirt bike era.

too bad traffic around here is what it is, but it is.

[Robert Luland]

In the words of Mark Masa a few years ago. "Two things that don't work, don't make one that does."

[Steve Swan]

Tommo wrote, "My 27 and chair has the internal/external rear brake set up and at road speeds will lock the rear wheel with either if you jump on them hard enough."

hmmm......... this has me thinking maybe i need to step on the brake pedal harder........? maybe i am stepping on the JD pedal as i am accustomed to stepping on the pedal of a more modern drum brake........

or i wonder if i have my brake pedal set up correctly.........

the rear brake bracket and bands were parts that came with my bike when i bought it. i relined the bands with the like (as i understand them to be) original lining from Johnny Sells.

it seems the rear portion of the top band drags a fair amount on the drum and front portion of the bottom band drags a fair amount on the drum. i have my brake pedal play set up with as much play as i can to minimize the lining dragging on the drum while at the same time still feel like i am not going to bottom the pedal when i step on the brake.

enclosed are a couple pics taken during my 1st build process. i will appreciate your thoughts or anything you see that may be amiss. in particular if there are any set up tips i may have overlooked out of ignorance.

fwiw, you will note the red color of the edge of the drum. this is from heat.

[Tommo]

Mark and Steve,
You set up the brake so that the internal one is almost rubbing and the external is a bit on the loose side.
You brake initially using the internal brake and as the heat from braking grows the steel brake drum and the internal brake starts to fail you move to using the external brake that is now more efficient due to the expansion of the drum.
Don't adjust the external band up too tight as in the worst cases the said drum expansion can lock up the rear wheel.
Marks right in saying the rear pedal is hard to find but just as hard to find is the rear footboard mounting that the brake pedal revolves on.