Distinguishing J frames by year - where to look

[Nils_r]

Hi, just found two J HD bike projects and the engines leave no doubt about the year of manufacture (16 and 23), however one of the frames could be 1916, 17 or even newer. I have a 1916 bike from before and I cannot spot differences from this to the new frame other than it's a magnet version missing the holes for the electric wire bracket. The engine however, is an electric (preceded by L) so they are probably not a matched pair. Is there any tell tale signs for distinguishing a 1916 (or for that sake 1915) frame from a 1917 or 18 for instance. I can take pics of critical items, I guess the headstock could be such a feature?

Best
Nils_r

[exeric]

I think this is the easiest feature to spot on a 1915-'16 frame. In 1917 the frame was widened so there will not be the dog-legs in the frame tubes, just behind the fender mount. Also, the fender mount has 3 holes in '15-'16, and only 2 in 1917 and later.

[Nils_r]

Hi- thanks- then it's defintely not a 16- see pics taken with the 16 to the left. So- which model could it be then - what distinguishes a 17 from a 18 for instance.
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[duffeycycles]

The gusset under the neck is 1920 or later

[Nils_r]

The gusset under the neck is 1920 or later

Ok- some more pics- the red is the one i am wondering about.

Could it be a 1923?

The gusseting is more visible and the gearbox plate is differently attached to the frame- it's without any "holes"
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[MMasa]

The gray primer frame is a 1916 and the reddish one is mid 1923-1924. I'd have to see he muffler hangers (if they are still there) on the red one to tell if it is 1923 or 1924.
Mark

[Nils_r]

Hi- took some pictures of the muffler brackets - they are much longer than the 16 brackets. Supposedly the lot had a 17 and a 23 bike- need to check the other frame - maybe that is pre 20 then. Is it possible to determine the red frame production year from these pics?



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[MMasa]

How many frames are you sending pictures of? 3?
The pictures of the muffler brackets would be better if there was some light and they could actually be seen clearly.
The gray primered frame from your first pictures is 100% for certain a 1916 frame or VERY VERY early 1917. Early as in the first 100-200 VIN's.
Are the pictures of the muffler bracket of the 1916 gray frame, the 1923/24 red frame or of a third frame?
Mark

[Nils_r]

Hi- sorry- the gray is just stacked together with the reddish frame - the grey is undoubtly a 1916 which I am restoring at present. The primed red is the frame for a national sidecar which was connected to the 16J.

The muffler brackets is from the alleged 1923ish frame- the one I would like to date

Best
NilsR

[Nils_r]

Right- presume the reddish frame is a 1923. Here is another challenge- which year is this. Engine accompanying it is a 1923 J but cannot tell which engine to which frame. Another 23 frame?

Best
Nils_r
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[MMasa]

It also is either a 1923 or a 1924. I would need to see a clear picture of the front and rear muffler hangers to tell.
You could also look on that tank mounting strip mounted to the top side of the top frame tube. There should be a two digit year stamped onto the short strip between the seat post and the seat pivot.
I should also add that if either or both frames turn out to be 1924, changing the muffler hangers is all that it takes to convert it to a mid-1923 to end of 1923 frame.
Mark

[Nils_r]

Great- thanks. The lot included 2 gearboxes as well- with one being 1916- with a special pedal I notice- Willy post pics as the 16 box I have from before misses the step starter. Also a funny taillight mounted on a circular spring- but I gater that is post 1916

Best
Nilsr

[MMasa]

The spring taillight sounds like the one used 1923-25

[Dave Minerva]

Is the 16 trans for sale?

[Nils_r]

Maybe- i have suddenly two 16 transmission and two 16 engines - but only one 16 frame. Need to ensure that I have one complete for the bike i have been working on some years.