J Model Paint colours

[Ric Bolduc]

There's a thread on the forum in classifieds called "1923 Sidecar Chassis" that shows close up pics of a 1923 sidecar chassis with remnants of the original Brewster green paint...

[Ric Bolduc]

While we're on the subject of sidecar frame paint, I saw an old factory photo taken sometime between 1918-1923 showing the frames being painted with a brush... See this link for some pretty interesting factory photos. http://www.ridingvintage.com/2013/04...n-factory.html

[Fiskis]

I'm certain that 1928 had black sidecar frame. I definitively believe that 1927 also has that. A 1926 that I had came with a black sidecar frame but it was a repaint. Most '26:s I have seen have black sidecar frames. 1925 is a little special with a lot of one-year parts and carry-overs. I have little knowledge of that year. My 1920 has never had a sidecar, but I bet it should be Olive Green.

[MikeW]

As I seem to have started a debate on which there doesn't seem to be much of a consensus, I decided I'd better look for myself. I've now trawled through dozens of photos from the net and, probably following the same path trodden by the AMCA experts, confirmed what you already knew: that images from 90-110 years ago can very difficult to decipher. The black and white film emulsions of the time don't always render colour variations well; bikes that are well-used are dusty from the unsealed roads of the time; most non-factory or non-professional photos are Box Brownie or Vest Pocket Kodak efforts, which are usually small and fuzzy; and people - the subjects of the photos - often unreasonably stand in front of the bike.

However, it is clear that many early Harleys, particularly from the "grey era", have sidecar frames which are noticeably darker that the cycle or the sidecar body. I assume that is Mark's dark grey.

I have another theory. Because those who actually worked in the dealerships and paint shops of the 1920s are no longer with us, it's hard to be certain, but my guess is that pre-30 bikes may have been repainted more often than we assume. Certainly automobiles were. I remember as a child in the 1950s walking regularly past the local paint and panel shop. While Vic Viggers did crash repairs, the repainting of tired fleet or private vehicles was a steady part of his business. I can only just remember when my parents' auto came back from a repaint in the early 50s. My father was most unhappy with the artistic efforts of the paint shop pinstriper!

If motorcycles were repainted, it would likely be in the colours current at the time of the repaint. Perhaps that was the case with the 1919 J combination advertised on www.batorinternational.com. It is claimed to be an original paint machine (ex-Bud Ekins), a winner at Quail Island for the best preserved bike, but it has red striping on the cycle and sidecar, rather than dark green, as well as some other non-original features. However it does have a dark geen or faded black sidecar chassis. So that leaves us still with the question "What's original?".

[exeric]

In the classified ads in the back of early trade magazines (pre, and post WW1 ); it was common to see shops that would re-nickel, and repaint your motorcycle for $5. I'm sure a buck went a lot further in those days, but I can't believe you got a first class job for $5. I've also seen many gray era Harleys, and Excelsiors that have been repainted many years ago into the later Olive Green, or Drab Green to make a mid-teens bike look like a late teens bike. I know that doesn't answer any sidecar frame questions, but my mind tends to wander these days

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear All, Shop Dope 423 of April 9, 1928 gives some help on re-enameling prices, which is also a list of extra charges for new parts enameled in the standard optional colors. For sidecar frames the standard color is H-D Gray, Brewster Green or Olive Green. A dash in the standard optional colors column suggests no others were available. By Shop Dope 73S of April 13, 1931 the sidecar/package truck frame is shown as black with no options available.

[MikeW]

Thanks Steve. I think there are three core issues in this thread: whether ex-factory J Model H-D sidecar frames were painted a different colour to the cycle and the sidecar bodies; if so, what the different colour combinations were; and in what years they were applied?

So assuming that the reference to "re-enamelling" in the three "standard" colours in Shop Dope 423 - Gray, Brewster Green, and Olive Green - meant repainting in the original factory colours, it still leaves the question whether gray sidecar frames went with gray bikes; Brewster green frames with 1922 and 1923 Brewster green bikes; and olive green frames went with olive green bikes. (I assume that the Gray enamel mentioned was the pre-17 Dark Gray.)

What does seem to be suggested in SD 423, and is new info to this thread, is that:

(1) Black as the universal finish for sidecar frames came in sometime between 1928 and 1931; and
(2) Olive Green was a sidecar frame colour at some time in the "Olive period" from 1917 to circa 1930.

My proposition, which seems to fit most of the info and opinions expressed to date, and which I happily wait to have blown away, is that:

(1) Gray bikes had Dark Gray sidecar frames (from photographic and documentary evidence, though some photos seem to show frame colours as for the sidecar body.);
(2) For the early Olive Green period, sidecar frames were Brewster Green. (This matches Ric's paint samples and Mark's documents. This green/dark green combination also logically mirrored the previous gray/dark gray combination);
(3) Whether 1920 and 21 sidecar frames were as for (2) above seems likely but is still debateable. I'd really like to know for my 1921 restoration!
(4) 1922 and 23 Brewster Green bikes had Brewster Green sidecars and sidecar frames. (This matches Ric's paint samples. Also, if the factory were keeping the pattern of a darker shade for the sidecar frames then black would seem the only option - but black isn't given as a "standard" option in Shop Dope 423 of 1928 as quoted by Steve.)
(5) Some time after 1923, with the reversion to Olive Green as the standard finish, sidecar frames were enamelled in Olive Green - carrying on the single colour paint job that was established in the 1922 and 1923 Brewster Green period. (That seems to be the logical explanation for the standard Olive Green sidecar frame colour quoted in Shop Dope 423.)
(6) At some point between 1928 and 1931, all sidecar frames from then on were painted black.
(7) And all during this period owners could get their machines re-enamelled through the dealerships, or by the $5.00 merchants, in colours different from then original factory finish.

Ok, it's still just a theory, but it does seem to have some logic, and some partial evidence.

Any more info and opinion gratefully accepted. And I'd still like an answer to the second question in my original post if at all possible.

[Ric Bolduc]

From the research I've done, the J/JD sidecar wheel hub and hub cap were the same color as the sidecar frame. I have original paint sidecar hub caps for 1919, 1923, and 1928 that are definitely Brewster Green. I also have two original paint 1928 sidecar wheel hubs that are also Brewster Green. I'm still not 100% sure when H-D made the change to a black frame but I can say for sure that the original paint on my 1931 VL sidecar frame is Brewster Green.

[MikeW]

Thank you Ric.

That leaves number (5) in my elegant theory above very much in doubt, though the rest might still hang together. And it leaves a mystery in that, if Brewster Green was indeed the sidecar frame colour through the late 20s, which I think you've held to consistently Ric, why is Olive listed as a sidecar frame paint colour in Steve's 1928 Shop Dope 423? And are all of those restored J Model combinations with Olive sidecar frames incorrect? Maybe the buyer had a choice of colour when he went to the dealer in the mid-20s to shell out a significant number of hard-earned dollars for a new machine. Maybe we'll never really know with 100% certainty. (My two frames, both left-hand 1918, are like Mark's, completely rust brown.)

That said, if you or others have got any further documentation you've come across in your researches I, and I'm sure others, would be pleased to hear of it.

Thanks again all.

[Ric Bolduc]

I've got my hands on an original paint 1930 sidecar brake backing plate and it's painted Brewster Green so I think we can safely say that Brewster Green was at least a sidecar frame paint option for 1930 and 1931 since I also have a 1931 sidecar frame that has remnants of Brewster Green paint.

[MikeW]

Sidecar frame colours - a postscript

Since the last post in the thread on J Model sidecar frame colours, I have acquired a reproduction of the 1918-19 Harley Davidson Accessory Catalog (from JW Boon). P 53 lists the cans and tubes of H-D paint available from the factory for repainting or touching in the main frame and sheet metal, and striping, colours of motorcycles and sidecars.

I have attached a photo of the relevant page. The air drying enamel colours are listed "gray enamel" and "dark gray sidecar chassis enamel", and "olive drab enamel" and "Brewster green sidecar chassis enamel". That seems pretty conclusive evidence to me that, in 1918 and 1919 at least, olive painted machines were supplied with brewster green sidecar chassis, while gray machines had dark gray sidecar frames.

But it does leave another mystery. Why is brewster green listed as a striping colour? Pullman coach and pea green are listed as "1918" striping colours. Was Brewster green used briefly in 1917 as a striping colour?

Also, I assumed that gas tanks would have been varnished to protect the transfers, but the advertisement for Copal varnish at the bottom of the page inplies that all enamel parts were routinely varnished at the factory?

The more you think you have the answer about matters 100 years ago, the more questions arise.

002 - Copy (800x600).jpg

[Chris Haynes]

This is from 1928. Doesn't say were the colors are used, just what was being sold.

[Shawn]

Screenshot_20170619-211026.jpgr=Screenshot_20170619-211026.jpgScreenshot_20170619-211026.jpg

I'm restoring my 1928 JD sidecar. I was uncertain if the frame should be black or olive green. This thread didn't have a clear consensus. I came across this color factory illustration from 1927. The sidecar frame in the illustration is black.

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear All, in the 1932 accessory catalog the striping colour Florentine is shown with part number 11634-X. Has anyone ever seen this? Is it the creamy colour that seems to have been used as the divider stripe in the 1934 Orlando Orange and Black paint scheme, and maybe the 1936 Dusk Grey and Royal Buff?

[1950Panhead]

I'm restoring my 1928 JD sidecar. I was uncertain if the frame should be black or olive green. This thread didn't have a clear consensus. I came across this color factory illustration from 1927. The sidecar frame in the illustration is black.

Sand old paint off in two locations, last color is factory, brochures are brochures, not what was done.