Harley 1910 Magneto Drive

[sirhrmechanic]

Since I am waiting on parts for the EL project... it's back to the Magneto drive for this weekend. Got most of the control parts in from Competition Distributing. And my magneto arrived back from Mark's Magneto Service in Ct. Lovely!

First order of the day was to fit the magneto to the casting. This required elongating the mounting holes slightly, but only about .020" had to be removed. Easily accomplished with files. The magneto was then lined up and the gear mesh was confirmed. I also removed about .020" from one side of the shaft input hole in the casting. It cleared, but only just. Again, filed the material away in just minutes.

With the magneto mocked in place, it became time to deal with the carb and manifolds.

The replica Schebler that is on the bike is probably the root of most of the poor running. Despite all my tinkering, I can't get it working right. So, instead, I am putting on an M16 Linkert. The problem with the linkert is that, dimensionally, it won't fit in the space allocated -- especially with a Magneto. The bowl will hit the mag and the intake end of the Linkert will hit the fuel filter/outlet fitting.

Here's the solution.

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The answer, fit a custom intake manifold that has a slight offset -- in other words, rotate the carb about 20 degrees away from the Mag so that it angles out from under the tank.

aaaa 1 intake.jpg

Here is the intake that I will be modifying. It used to be for, I think, a Servicar. I cut off the split and trued it on a faceplate. Then, holding it on the intake port, I could figure out the angle.

aaaa 3 intake.jpg

Intake set up in a rotary vice on the mill. Cut the shank off to shorten it at the correct angle.

aaaa 4 intake.jpg

After checking the fit and the angle, reset in the table and use a boring bar to open up the port in the intake manifold for a new threaded coupler that will screw into the intake port. The boring head lets me open it up to about 1.1" at a 20 degree angle.

aaaa 5 intake.jpg

This is the coupler fitted tightly in the intake manifold flange. This will be silver-soldered into place after final fitting. But first, it has to be threaded.

More in a moment.

[sirhrmechanic]

Continuing on the intake part of the installation.

aaaa 6 intake.jpg

Turned threads. These are about 1 1/16 x 20 TPI. I lapped in the threads after turning. I will make a copper or aluminum 'jam washer' to set the intake in place when I do the final installation. This will let me precisely align it so that the float is level and the intake is tight. Material for the union is aluminum bronze, which should be more than strong enough to hold the carb.

aaaa 7 intake.jpg

This is the finished "offset" intake manifold. Just needs to be silver-soldered.

aaaa 9 intake.jpg

This shows the offset of the carb. The bowl clears the magneto just fine and the throat clears the fuel filter/outlet from the tank. It's far enough from my knee that I won't hit it. I still need to design some kind of a screen. More to keep out the larger bugs and stones than act as a true air filter. But before I do that, the carb is going out to Mike at "Into the Wilderness" for rebuild.

aaaa 8 mag.jpg

Back to the magneto itself. This shows the magneto in place. I tested the spark by removing an intermediate gear and rotating the mag with the spark plug grounded. Nice hot spark! I also ran through the valve timing according to some of the articles you folks posted for me in a related thread. Everything timed out perfectly! The piston-to-exhaust-valve relationship was right on. Now I can put in gaskets, button the cases up and get onto the controls.

aaaa 99 intake.jpg

This shows the mag from the left side. It's a lovely arrangement! And between the Mag and the Linkert, it should transform this bike into a fun rider.


The controls are going to be interesting. I am going to have to make one of the brackets from scratch as the castings are NLA. But I can make it in such a way that I can probably screw it onto the frame instead of brazing it.

And I need new control cables as the 'timeless' ones are too thin and don't work as well as the larger original style cables.

I think, as well, that I may try and take the engine out of the frame and put it on a stand to run and tune it... anyone know if someone makes a stand for an early HD single?

More tomorrow as I'll likely be buttoning up the cases, setting the timing on the mag and starting on the controls. I'll try and post some great controls pictures later on tonite as long as noone complains about the copyright violations... I'll plead fair use.

Cheers, Sirhr.

[exeric]

I think what you are doing is fantastic Sirhr. I think the Timeless motorcycles will become highly sought after because there will be a whole sub-culture of people that improve and upgrade them to be fun, enjoyable motorcycles. Obviously, no one is going to re-work a 1910 H-D to make it user-friendly, but a Timeless can be retro-fitted to be a reliable time machine that can transport it's owner to 1910. Then you can beat the hell out of it like they did to H-D's in 1910.

[c.o.]

What Eric said!!! Thanks for taking us along for the ride Sirhr!!!

[sirhrmechanic]

Thanks for the interest in the thread... There's two of us in the 'neighborhood' (by that I mean the state) with Timeless machines. His seems to run better than mine. For now. But hopefully some folks get some ideas and vice-versa. I think they are neat... w.out the risk/expense of the real thing.

Here are some linkage pictures pirated... er borrowed from some books. The first set seems to have a clamp-on bracket for the throttle/compression release. This may be homemade or may be something HD offered to allow owners to convert battery machines to magnetos. But the Magneto bikes seem to have a brazed-on bracket for this lever. If anyone knows for sure, I'd be interested to find out. Rat up at Harbor Vintage has a 10 parts book. But I didn't look at frame/controls section last time I was there.

These are some of the original controls pictures.


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This shows the magneto advance arrangement. Note that there is some covering on the cable up near the neck. Also, this has the clamp-on bracket for the throttle/compression release lever.

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Close-up of the magneto showing the direction/arrangement of the advance/retard lever and cable. Competition Distributing sells these bits.

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Again, the clamp-on bracket. Original or home-made? It's a good arrangement to put a mag on a battery bike.

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Curved pipe that bolts to the top of the cylinder and carries the cable down to the magneto. Also the bracket again. Competition Dist. has these bits, too.

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This shows the carb side, but with an original Schebler. Note the spring arrangement to 'buffer' the movement of the carb linkage. And the arrangement of the compression release/throttle lever. On the battery models, the compression release is controlled by the advance grip. On the Magneto models, the valve is held open w. the throttle wide open.

More to follow

Cheers, Sirhr

[sirhrmechanic]

Here are some pictures of the throttle side as well as one picture from a later bike (mechanical intake single.)

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Sorry about the sideways post. Magneto link.

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This gives an outstanding view of the throttle link with a brazed on post. I *think* this is the original/correct arrangement for the lever. If anyone has a picture of a frame (or a parts book that shows the bits) it would confirm it.

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This shows the lever arrangement on a later single. I think a '15. It has a mechanical intake valve, much like a J. But the lever arrangement seems to be the same.


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Another view of the complete arrangement from the left. Note the brazed-on post for the throttle/compression release lever.

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Excellent view of the controls.

These are the best pictures I have been able to find in my books. There is one other picture (I think posted earlier in this thread) of a bike owned by Fred Lange, from whom I bought the castings. Gorgeous bike, but the lever arrangement is confusing as it seems to be drilled into the frame. It's the only time I have ever seen that layout. So don't know if that was unique to that year or another way of adapting a battery bike to magneto.

Thanks for everyone's interest and cheers, Sirhr.

[sirhrmechanic]

After a couple of weeks waiting for parts and doing spring chores... (and working on the EL)... here is one picture of the carb mounted on the conversion.

I'll have pictures of the mag mounting, carb mounting and controls in a couple of days.

I ended up taking the motor out of the frame briefly. In retrospect, that's the best way to do the mag work. It has to come out anyway in order to put in the mag control tube.

Now, off to cook Easter Dinner. Happy holidays, all.

prevue of 1910.jpg

This shows the carb with its offset intake and mount, the top of the magneto (now final installed and timed) and the beginnings of the controls (which are a royal PITA.) But it's all coming together. The mag throws a hot spark. I'll get it running and tuned, then paint the tanks.


Cheers,

Sirhr

[sirhrmechanic]

Last weekend, I made a lot of forward progress on the 1910 Magneto/Linkert conversion. Here are some updates for those following the progress.

In retrospect, it's more involved than I thought it would be. But I didn't have anything to go on... and am winging the whole thing. But everything is straightforward and though there is some fabricating, etc. to do, the conversion should be well within the capabilities of a home mechanic. I have lots of cool machine tools to play with... but any decent fabrication shop/machine shop can make these bits based on photos and sketches.

I am really, really looking forward to seeing how this runs. The setup should be really reliable.

Based on where we left off, it was time to final set the timing and button up the magneto drive. I cut gaskets for the cam cover and installed the cam gear set. I used the timing method that was described in an earlier post showing how to ensure cam position was correctly set (this is called the Valve Timing -- as opposed to the ignition timing.) After ensuring it was in the right place, I locked the cover down with a gasket and sealant and fitted the cover (but without a gasket yet. We still have to set ignition timing.

The magneto was set on at this point and it was lined up to ensure the gear teeth meshed perfectly (and in plane with) the gear train. This is very important. If the mag is caddywampus, the gears will not mesh right and will chew each other up.

With the mag mounted, I set the ignition timing, again going by an old manual posted here. On the drive belt pulley, I made marks for Magneto Advanced Ignition and Magneto Late Ignition. I also put on a TDC mark for the piston.

zzz timing marks.jpg

With the timing marks set, I final mounted the cover, removed the spark plug and ran the engine using a large drill in order to check the timing. The magneto fired beautifully and the timing seemed right on. I set it so that the MLI was firing just after TDC. The MAI was about 30 degrees BTDC. So with the grip control, I should have a lot of flexibility on timing. Not sure if this will be like the Curved Dash Olds I used to own... but that car was basically driven with the timing, not the accelerator. You kept the throttle open all the time and modulated the timer for power... interesting way of driving. I suspect this will be more advanced (pardon the pun.)

zzz carb rough fitted.jpg

With the cover in place, it's time to go on to carb mounting. Above you see it held roughly in place.

With the Linkert M16, there is no room between the bowl and the magneto (and between the body and the 1910 fuel filter/fuel outlet under the tank. So it has to be set on a slightly offset mount.

zzz manifold finished.jpg

To create an offset mount, I used a Linkert intake (from a Servicar) and cut off the Y-pipe, then threaded an adapter to allow it to go onto the 1910 cylinder. In order to create the offset, the manifold was chucked in a mill and a boring bar was used to put in the adapter at an angle. It was then silver-soldered in place. It was final lapped into the cylinder for a tight fit.

zzz manifold in place.jpg

Above we see the manifold in place. Note that the bolts had to be put into place before the manifold was seated! There was no room between the flange and the fins. A couple of the carb mounting bolts had to be thinned as well. But all went in nicely.

On the subject of clearance... I started doing this with the engine in the frame and the tanks on. No question that this job is much easier with the tanks off and the engine out of the frame. Competition Distributing sells an engine stand that I wish I had bought before starting this. Note that the engine comes out/goes in very fast. And the tanks only have a few fasteners. You will need to assemble/reassemble a few times!

Back to the story...

With the manifold in place, the carb can be mounted (at least temporarily). Make VERY sure that your manifold (and therefore your carb) will be level. If it's tilted, you'll never get your fuel float level right.

zzz carb in place showing offset.jpg

Here we see the carb mounted showing the offset. This will clear my knee fine and looks very presentable with its brass barrel and aluminum float. But it still has to be connected!

In addition, the level of the carb coming off the intake was such that the tanks on my bike had to be slightly raised. I wanted to do this anyway, because the side of the right tank actually touched the brass cover of the intake valve. That was unacceptable to me.

So I made some blocks that went between the frame and tank, raising both tanks .250" allowing lots of clearance on the carb. Those pictures in a moment!

[sirhrmechanic]

Raising the tank was pretty quick and straightforward. I started with some 1/2" aluminum plate and made some spacers for the frame.

zzz tank raise.jpg

Here is one of the blocks resting on the frame, unmachined.

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Set up in the mill, the face is cut to exactly fit the 1.75" OD of the frame tube. A hole is drilled for the tank mounting screw.

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The block will fit in between the tanks and give .250" of height. There are cross bolts underneath the tanks, and they still clear the lower frame tubes fine.

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Here is the right tank attached, showing configuration.

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And here is the additional clearance. This was not just necessary for the intake cap, but for the carb, which needs room for the linkages.

More on that in a moment!

[sirhrmechanic]

The last series simply raised the tanks to clear the carb and intake.

Next, we need to modify the Linkert choke lever to clear the fuel filter. This simply meant filing off some of the lever (marked in red) to clear the filter.

zzz linkert lever modification.jpg

Next, we need to make a new lever for the Linkert. As the original Schebler carb works in a direction opposite the Linkert, a lever has to be made to move the cable attachment onto the left side of the carb (looking from the choke end.) I made a lever from a flat piece of brass and added a rotating barrel through which the control arm can pass. The lever is somewhat visible in this picture, along with the springs to control the throttle.



Note the rod with the springs on it... more on this later. But this setup controls the throttle. The springs are necessary because the throttle controls both the engine speed AND a compression release. On the battery bikes, the compression release is handled by the timer control. Full retard (plus) and you get the compression release to open for starting.

On the magneto bikes, Full throttle 'plus' and you get the compression release to work. So the linkage has to be able to fully open the throttle and *then* pull a bit further to raise the exhaust valve for compression release. More on this later.

First, we have to start fabricating some linkage mounts and parts.

From the pictures I posted earlier, it appears that the magneto bikes had a different frame from the battery bikes, with a mount brazed on for the throttle/compression release toggle. I opted to make a mount that looked the same, but hold it on with screws.

First, a pedestal was modified to hold a rod. It was also cut to fit on a base. A tab was made that fit around the frame tube (1.75" ID and 2.00" od.) I used aluminum bronze, which is a very tough alloy and is easily silver-soldered.

Here the mill is used to round the base of the pedestal so it will fit on the clamp/tab. The pivot for the lever is already test fitted in place pending silver solder.

zzz bracket 1.jpg

In the next photo we see the modified base after milling using a 2.00" cutter.

zzz bracket 2.jpg

Below is the finished bracket on the frame down tube. I opted not to braze/solder the mount on, instead screwing it to the frame w. 10-32 machine screws.

zzz bracket 3.jpg

Now we are ready to start fitting linkages... which will be next weekend's project. A couple more photos follow, however.

[sirhrmechanic]

Here are some additional pictures of the linkage, one showing the lever that was made/mounted to the Linkert to control the throttle butterfly. You can see the barrel through which the control cable passes and which supports the springs.

zzz linkage 1.jpg

This also shows the lever that was made and attached to the top of the Linkert lever. With the throttle lever modified on the linkert, it works in the correct orientations with the 1910 throttle spiral.

zzz linkage 3.jpg

Earlier, I mentioned taking the engine out of the frame... and here is why. The magneto advance/retard control cable runs through a tube that is attached to the top of the engine -- this is a cap over the combustion chamber. The engine top also incorporates the top engine mount that is attached to the frame. To get the tube onto that bolt, the engine must be released from its mounts and dropped away from the frame mounting tab.

In addition, the tab that holds the tube is over .100" thick. So the top engine mount has to be relieved to fit the tube. Here the hex has been removed from the engine, chucked in a lathe and .100" is being cut from the flange below the mounting bolt.

zzz engine top mod.jpg

This shows the bolt in position (outside its mounting tab) with the tube resting on it. That tube will not go on with the engine in the frame! Doom on me.

zzz engine top tube.jpg

This last picture shows the tab in place under the motor mount.

zzz linkage 2.jpg

Note that the above picture also shows the throttle toggle and bracket on the frame downtube. You can see the throttle linkage extending backwards to the top of the Linkert. And just make out the linkage that extends downwards to the compression relief lever.

Now that all the linkage brackets and layouts have been set out, next weekend (weather permitting and the river don't rise) I can lay out and complete the linkages.

Note, too, that the positioning of this front bracket (and the lengths of the linkage rods) are absolutely critical. There is a great variance in the sweeps of the arms... so to move the arm the correct amount to open/close the butterfly requires that the brackets be strategically placed. Hard to describe, but as you consider the arcs that the toggles/levers travel as they rotate, you see that distances can become critical. I have a huge amount of respect for those who designed/figured out linkages!!

More to come and glad folks are enjoying this.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[sirhrmechanic]

I got the linkages all in place and done today. But didn't take any pictures. But I'll post some in a couple of days of the finished linkages, which gives an idea of how to do them. The cables were 'barely' long enough... I should have ordered another set. But I just made it.

Also designed an air cleaner (more of a bird screen) that I'll try and build this week. I need to put on a fuel line and the air cleaner and then I'll try and get it running. See how it does with the new components.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[c.o.]

Sirhr, it sounds like you're making some good progress. Some shots of the finished product would be great! Video would be even better!!!

[sirhrmechanic]

After changing the carb settings (I set it by memory... and reversed the number of turns on the carb jets... that's why I always read the manual) she started right up. Running rough and spitting a lot of gas out of the carb. But it ran and sounded pretty good.

I will have some pix (and a video) when I get it tuned. But at least I know it will work.

There was some 'squeaking' from, I think, the mag drive. It is very well lubed with assembly lube, but I don't think it's getting enough (or any?) lubricant. I need to address that. It needs an oil bath. Before I run it again, I need to pull the cover off and see what's going on. Some thin shim washers may be in order, as well, on the cover side. I don't like the fact that there were none specified and I think it should have something to keep the gears away from the aluminum cover.

The engine also feels really 'tight'. It has lots of lube. But doesn't like to turn over, even with the compression release activated. But once it starts, it doesn't seem to act like a tight engine.

Anyone have any recommendations for a belt dressing for leather belts? It definitely has a 'slippy' belt, which makes starting a pain.

A couple of pix of the fuel line and bird catcher, etc.

start 1.jpg
Bird catcher. Made with brass and a sheet of .064" german silver (plus a drill press...) Not authentic to anything... but sort of has that goofy Edwardian look and will keep fingers and large rocks out of the choke.

start 2.jpg
This shows the full configuration.

I'll post control pictures later. But she'es alive!!

Cheers,

Sirhr.

[Rod K]

This is copy from a page of the riders manual...hope it helps...Rod



1912 RIDERS MANUAL

BELT Keep the belt clean by all means. If dirt, sand or dressing accumulates on the belt it should be removed by scraping with edge of a stick or with some blunt instrument. We recommend that the belt be dressed with castor oil. After giving the belt a liberal dressing let it soak in overnight. Do not let any dressing get onto the enamel of the machine or it will stain it. The belt should be dressed at least once a month.

Never get any oil or gasoline on the belt.

Run the belt as loose as possible without slipping and drop the idler every night. This gives the belt a chance to shrink a trifle.

All belts are stretched on the jack before they are put onto the machines and will not stretch much more.

After the belt has stretched so that the idler lever has reached the limit of its travel, remove the lock nut on the left side of the hanger box and turn the eccentric so as to allow the pedaling chain to become slack, then set the rear wheel back far enough to take up the slack in the belt, adjust the hanger eccentric to take up the pedaling chain and replace the lock nut, If further adjustment be necessary the pulley should be removed and the idler arm advanced one gear tooth in respect to the idler arm. By advancing the idler arm one tooth, this idler mechanism has capacity to take up six inches of belt stretch, sufficient to take care of all the stretch during the life of the belt.

If the belt has stretched so much that the idler will not take up the stretch, send the belt back to the makers: the Chicago Belting Co., Chicago, IL. to have it shortened.

Be careful to mark the package with your name and address and write the Chicago Belting Co., telling them just what you want done with the belt.

The belts are guaranteed by the makers and should they prove defective return to the Chicago Belting Co., for adjustment, writing them fully at the time regarding such matter.

A wide flat belt with proper care will give good service for thousands of miles but if abused it will last but a short time.

Do not expect adjustment on a belt if it has not received proper dressing, if it has run dry or has been otherwise abused or on one that has been repaired.