Harley 1910 Magneto Drive

[sirhrmechanic]

I have one of the 'timeless' Harley replicas and it is kind of a hoot. But I am converting to Magneto drive as it will make it a lot more rideable. I am also putting on an M16 Linkert... again, not 'authentic' (though who cares, it's a replica!) but will make it very rideable.

Can anyone send me a photo/list/schematic/etc. of the internals needed to set up the mag drive. I bought one of the casting sets from Fred Lange. This includes the inner gear drive/mag mount casting. And the cover. It's very nicely made. But is bare.

Competition Distributing has the internal parts, but I am not sure which gears, etc. to order.

If anyone has done this conversion or can send me some info on what I need to order, I would sure appreciate it!

Thanks and cheers,

Sirhr

[Ross]

Please keep in the loop as I was riding my timeless this summer. A) the carb fouls the plug after a short ride B) the battery runs out quickly What u are doing is what I also need to do. I'm with u, it is just for the fun and I can let my friends ride it and not worry about wrecking a 100K machine. moose102@escape.ca Any progress here would be great.

[sirhrmechanic]

@Ross: I will gladly do that.

I did some dismantling this afternoon and started checking parts fit. The casting will need some fettling and the lip will need to be fitted. I also have to take a bit off the flanges (see photo) to get everything to line up right.

Stripped off the timer, removed the cover and undid the timer linkage. Took off the coil as it won't be needed any more. Also removed carb as the fuel line will have to be re-routed (if using the original carb), though in my case I am going to replace w. Linkert. After those were removed, I took off the cover and marked the gear teeth, then removed the cam gear. All straightforward.

Here are some pictures of the inside. Next, I need to determine what gears/parts I need...

Cheers, Sirhr

mag 2.jpg These are the castings from Lange

mag 5.jpg The black marks show areas that will need relief

mag 3.jpg This is the engine after removing carb, coil, cover

mag 4.jpg Closeup of the timing case cover

mag 6.jpg Cam gear (from behind.) Steep ramp for timer!

[Ross]

Awesome followup. Much appreciated.

[sirhrmechanic]

Some more follow-up.

I haven't been able to get a thing in terms of pictures inside a magneto case... or a parts list. BUT... spent some time on the Competition Distributing site counting teeth and playing calculator (badly as usual). I also was at Harbor Vintage yesterday and Rat let me look through an original 1910 parts book he has. Thanks, Rat!

Among the things I have been able to confirm: I will need a new cam gear. I will also need a new cam plate (three-screw post that bolts to the crankcase). The Cam gear is 48 teeth.

Will also need two 36-tooth intermediate gears with pins to screw into the casing.

Where things get fuzzy is on the magneto drive gear and the magneto driven gear. The Comp Dist site shows a Mag drive gear as a 36-tooth gear. But they don't specify if this gear is the one that goes up at the Magneto? Or if it somehow pins/attaches to the Cam gear. For the gear train to work, there has to be a gear "stacked" on top of the cam gear. But I don't have a picture of the front of a cam gear. So I don't know if it is integral, or if there is a second gear that fits on top.

In addition, I assume that the magneto driven gear (the one that should attach to the magneto) *should* have some kind of taper in the middle. Could be a separate piece, or could be cut into the center of the gear. This taper would allow the magneto to be timed by allowing the gear to go at any position on the tapered magneto input shaft.

I have written a couple of restorers, Comp. Dist and Fred Lange (who has a magnificent 1910 on his Web site) to see if I can get some pictures. The Harley Parts book was definitely helpful, but line drawings were not all that detailed.

The other issue is trying to figure out how the Linkert goes on so as not to interfere with the fuel dirt trap or the Magneto. Making the manifold connection will be simple... I already have the flange part done. But the spacing and intake plenum length may be interesting. Certainly will have to wait until the magneto is mounted.

Anyway, that's the update. Below is the parts list as I see it so far. More to follow I am sure... If anyone has ANY information, photos or input, I would appreciate it. This is all just based on looking at pictures of parts and trying to reverse engineer.

Cheers,

Sirhr


Parts List from Competition Distributing for ‘populating’ a Lange-Made Magneto casting set going on a 1910-type Harley Single (Timeless Replica.) This will drive a Bosch ZE1 Magneto, but would drive any similar clockwise rotating mag. The Lang replica cases have pins/gear centers that appear to be about 2” on center.

1. Part 1000SG Gasket set
2. Part AA 311 Stud and washer set, Intermediate gears
3. CA 308 Magneto/Cam main gear (48 tooth) @3.125”
4. Part DA-303 Magneto Drive Gear (assume this fits on the taper of the magneto?) 36 tooth @ 2.35”
5. Qty 2 AA 305 Intermediate Gear. 36 tooth
6. Part CAM-SK Screw Set
7. K 171-10 Magneto Lever for Carb and Compression Relief
8. BA300 Compression Relief Lever (looks like I have to fabricate the magneto advance tube)
9. CA 310 Gear Stud Plate for Magneto (shorter than Timer/Battery plate.)

There seems to be one gear ‘missing’ from my order. The cam gear (which is driven off the flywheel/crank gear) is 48 tooth. It sits below the level of the magneto gear train. Either that gear has a second gear machined ‘stacked’ on it. Or the Magneto Drive Gear (DA303) is used here and somehow attached to the Cam gear with a key or a pin. And a similar 36-tooth gear has to be fitted to the magneto. That gear would need a taper in it, allowing the mag timing to be set. These part numbers are from Competition Distributing in Sturgis: http://www.competitiondist.com/products.php

[Ross]

Stay on the trail. You got it going.

[sirhrmechanic]

Just got a parts list and invoice from Competition Distributing. Lonnie out there went through my list and got me the parts lined up.

Here is the list he sent me:

Cam Cover Screw Kit 19.95 19.95T
Magneto Lever 69.95 69.95T
Pinion Gear Nut 09-17 Singles 12.00 12.00T
Compression Relief Lever. Fits 1910 To 1917 Magneto Singles. 75.00 75.00T
Intermediate Gear Studs & Washers 49.95 49.95T
Pinion Gear Fits 1909 To 1917 Singles 64.95 64.95T
Secondary Cam Gear Fits 1909 To 1917 Magneto Singles 360.00 360.00T
Magento Gear Fits 1909 To 1917 Magento Singles 84.95 84.95T
Large Intermediate Gear Fits 1910 To 1912 Magneto 36 Tooth ( Req. 2) 72.00 72.00T
Small Intermediate Gear Fits 1909 To 1912 Magneto Singles 65.00 65.00T
USPS Small Flat Rate Box - International..or Domestic? 0.00 0.00T


Total was around $875... which seems like a bargain considering the work that has to go into some of these bits.

More to follow when I get the parts in hand and start the assembly.

Thanks to the guys at Competition Distributing, Fred Lange and Mark's Magneto Service... it's coming together.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[sirhrmechanic]

Received the package from Competition Distributing today. I'll post pictures tomorrow. But I think I have everything I need except the Mag which is out being rebuilt.

The parts from Comp Dist. were really nicely done and the aluminum cases from Fred Lange lined up beautifully with the pins. In a world of low-grade repop parts... this is truly the good stuff.

While on the subject... does anyone know the static timing (how many degrees BTDC?) for the '10 Magneto singles? I have no idea whether the Timeless Replicas have a timing mark on the flywheel. So I will simply re-static time from TDC and the pinion gear. But need the degree number if anyone has it.

Cheers,

Sirhr.

Cheers, Sirhr.

[sirhrmechanic]

Latest updates for those who have been following the conversion.

It's straightforward, but more involved than I originally thought. I'll have another parts order for Comp. Dist. because the changes to the controls will have to be made, I think including brazing a bracket to the frame. But in for a penny, in for a pound!

I'll have to post the photos in several separate posts as I think I am limited to 5 pictures per post.

aac gear layout.jpg

This is the layout in the case. The Pictures C.O. posted yesterday showed this really well! The drivetrain runs the magneto clockwise. The top gear is, indeed, tapered to lock onto the magneto and to allow the magneto to be positioned in any position.

aab magneto gears cam.jpg

This is the pair of cam gears. The one on the left is the original gear that runs timer bikes. The cam is different from the magneto. The right one is the new cam gear from competition distributing.

aaa magneto gears.jpg

This is the same gears from the outside face. The left gear, again, runs the timer points. The double gear is the one that runs the magneto drive train. They have the same profile and number of teeth. The post on which it rides must be shortened (or replaced... more on this later.)

aad gears.jpg

The cam gear in its orientation in the case. The post on which it rides is to the immediate right and is held by 3 nuts. A word of warning... at least on the Timeless bikes, these are NOT studs and are not secured in the rear. Do not attempt to remove this unless you want to split the cases. The shaft will have to be shortened... but will need to be done in place.

aaf original gear clearance.jpg

This shows the bore diameter of the original cam gear. It came in a 0.504" on a 0.500" shaft for a .004" running clearance. This seems like a lot... so I'll be fitting the new gear with a little less clearance. The new gear was slightly undersized and had about 0.001" taper, probably caused by pressing on the outer gear. This will be addressed below. I'd always rather get a gear w. an undersized bore!

Cheers,

Sirhr

[sirhrmechanic]

Continuing the installation

aah gear clearance.jpg

This is the new gear from Competition Distributing. Has a bore that is about 0.003" undersized for the shaft. And there was .001" taper, with the narrow end being where the gear is pressed on.

aai clearancing gear.jpg

The bore is easily cut with a pin hone. Don't try and cut these with a drill! Most machine shops or engine shops will have a pin hone available. Or make a set of lapping bars. I cut the bore out to .503" and it fit perfectly on the shaft, mating just right with the pinion gear. Of note, in the parts I received from Comp. Dist. I got a new pinion gear and nut. But I am not sure it's needed as the original gear is the same dimensions and profile. I am waiting for a response from them to see if they do recommend replacement.

aal screws.jpg

On to the casing... the casting will need some work. One is that as it came from Lange, it has a lip on the back. This lip probably fits the original HD cases perfectly... but is too large in diameter to fit the Timeless cases. More on that later. Also, the screws (pictured above) that come with the Competition Distributing kit appear to be 10-24 thread. The ones that go in the Timeless cases are 10-32. USE the ORIGINAL Timeless screws to put on the Lange casing or you risk messing up your right engine case! To get the original screws through the Lange casting, you will need to open up the 6 holes with a number 10 drill and countersink the holes to 5/16 +-

aaj dynafile.jpg

In an earlier post, I showed where the casting would have to be relieved. Using a Dynafile, I ground off the interfering areas and dressed the profile. Again, may not be necessary on an original HD case, but needed on the Timeless.

aak casting.jpg

Here is the case with the flanges dressed. Now clears the cases perfectly and is nicely blended.

More to follow...

Cheers,

Sirhr

[sirhrmechanic]

Continuing on the path...

aan castings polished.jpg

One thing I forgot to photograph was the process of cutting the back of the casting where it mates up with the cam chest on the right casing. But this was straightforward on the mill. The setup let me cut off the flange and precisely true the back of the case. Removed the flange and about an additional .010". This will be more than taken up with a gasket. After the cases were finish machined, I polished them. Originally, I think they would have been much more mottled, but this bike has a polished set of cases, so I wanted them to match. Of note, the machining done was to fit these to a replica bike... so may not have been at all needed for an original set of cases.

aam shroud.jpg

As noted earlier, the shaft on which the cam gear rides is longer for the timer than it is for the magneto gear. This is because the magneto gear doesn't have an extension to break the timer points. Short of changing the post (which involves splitting the cases) the end of the shaft must be cut off. To keep debris out of the engine, I used a shroud. The picture shows paper towel, which is just a mockup for the photo... and too flammable to use for real. I used a ceramic heat blanket for the actual cut. The end of the shaft came right off and I used machinist blue to ensure clearance inside the gear cover.

aao shaft.jpg

This picture shows the main gear in place on its shaft and meshed with the pinion gear. Note that this relationship is critical! I was able to position it (this is the static timing) by making sure that the pinion gear and the cam gear were marked before I disassembled them. This let me find cam center on the new gear and count teeth back to make a new mark. If you didn't mark the gears, you will need to set static timing based on some of the documents that C.O. posted in a related thread (thanks!). At this point, the gear has .003" clearance on the shaft... but it also needs side play addressed. As it sits, there is .050" of side play, which is way too much. So before final installation, I'll be putting in a .040" hardened shim to take out extra side clearance.


aap gear layout on bike.jpg

This shows the relationship of gears inside the case. Next, I need to get my mag back from rebuilding and fit it into place on the casting mount. The gears run on hardened pivots that are screwed into the case. The casting is not permanently mounted to the engine as I will want to test everything (and confirm my static timing) before putting on a gasket, sealant and bolting it all down.

aaq lever.jpg

This is a preview of challenges to come. On the battery ignition Model 5's, the timing advance and the compression release are handled by the left grip. But from what I can see of the pictures I have of magneto models (and this makes most sense), the throttle grip on the right handles both carburetter position and the compression release. The left grip control becomes only a controller for the magneto advance through a line that curves down to the mag.

Anyone who does know... or can send me detailed pictures of the controls... I would appreciate it! I am currently putting together another order to Competition distributing for some additional control parts.

Which brings us to the above lever. This mounts on the frame (right) downtube just below the neck and tank. It appears to go on a pedestal. It is the 'splitter' that carries motion from the right grip to both the carb and the compression release. So looks like you start the bike with the throttle open really wide to both enrich and open the valve! I'll try and post a picture of the arrangement if I can find a detailed enough one.

More to follow as I get the next round of parts and get the shim done for the gears.

Again, anyone who can share pictures of 'original' control arrangements... I sure would appreciate it! I am also trying to figure out the arrangement for grounding the magneto (this would kill the ignition). Some of the early bikes used a handlebar mounted 'blipper' switch. But I think the magneto singles (non-racing-type) had a tab on the magneto that you use to ground out the mag. If anyone knows for sure, I'd appreciate it. As I mentioned at the beginning... this is more involved than I thought it would be, but is turning into a fun little project.

Thanks, especially, to C.O. who has posted some really useful timing information this weekend.

And if anyone is interested in doing the same conversion, I am glad to answer questions or provide more details if they may prove helpful.

Cheers,

Sirhr

[c.o.]

Sirhr,

I've read about mounting a switch either to the frame or the handlebars. Here's the handlebar version. Again, it's from Victor Page's book "Early Motorcycles".

[Eric]

magneto controls

Thank you for this thread sirhrmechanic . Very interesting.
Here find detailed pictures of the 1910 magneto controls

[sirhrmechanic]

Thanks Eric. I had seen the picture of Fred Lange's bike and it's a bit odd, because the splitter lever appears to mount into the frame, not on a pedestal. I wasn't sure if that was a 1910 model year only way it was fitted or if there is some other reason. Fred's restoration shop is where the castings came from.

All the other bikes have the lever on a pedestal like the unrestored bike in your second picture. That bike/picture I had not seen and it's a great picture! Thanks! I also found some good pix in HD Chronicle (Doug Mitchell) and another book. Both have very detailed photos of magneto bikes.

Cheers,

Sirhr

Cheers, Sirhr

[sirhrmechanic]

Got this in from Competition Distributing regarding gear replacement and timing:

"Replacing the gear with the new one will allow everything to wear a little
more evenly is all." So from this I can be safe leaving the original 'Timeless' gear in place as it has so little running time, there is no problem. But for someone starting on an older or worn machine, yes, I think this is great advice as you don't want to mix new/worn gears if you can help it.

For timing:
"As far as the timing goes, we start between 30-40 degrees depending on compression ratio and move it around till we like it. We don't really have a set degree that we start or end at."

This makes a ton of sense for the early bikes. As with a lot of early cars I bet they were so 'individual' in some of their characteristics that the makers, riders and mechanics (there weren't many of those!) were just dialing things in until they felt right. I used to have a Curved Dash Olds 1903 that was like this. You could use science all day long to try and tune it. But in the end... just keep dialing until it runs its best.

Cheers and thanks to Andy at Comp. Dist. for his help.

Sirhr