JD/VL Battery

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Randy, my batteries leaked where the top section was joined to the box. When I used the battery I found the forward terminal screw came too close to the frame and the right hand gas line. I think those special terminal screws 4423-23 were horizontal on the Harley rather than vertical, but am still not certain.

[gww]

batt.

hi Tim, i have not put miles or time on this batt.. bought it after being suggested by a fella that has used it. i do intend to shake rattle an roll with it shortly as i have a bunch of miles to cover in sept. and dont need to find out the hard way.
here is the dealers info, but it is not specific on construction.


Home Page | VTwin Catalog | Batteries | Battery Chargers | Generators | About Us | Ordering Information |
Our Gel batteries are the BEST BATTERIES you will ever find for your antique motorcycle. I installed one on my VINCENT and turned the headlight and tailight on for 90 minutes while not running , the voltage dropped less than 1/4 volt !!!!! Lights were just as bright after 90 minutes. It is a totally sealed battery that needs no messy vent line and WILL NOT CORRODE at terminals. It has spade type terminals and rubberized case coating for antique look. WE ARE MOTORCYCLIST THAT ACTUALLY USE THE PRODUCTS WE SELL !! If you have a poor charging system such as miller or lucas this could solve your problem. I feel confident you could ride 3-4 hours with BRIGHT lights and a nonworking charging system.

Click For Larger Image
6V18A - Gel Battery

The BEST BATTERY you will ever find for your antique motorcycle. It has Spade Type Terminals and rubberized case coating for an antique look.
Capacity: 18 amp hours
Voltage: 6volt Height: 6 1/2"
Length: 3 1/4"
Width: 3 1/2"
$72.00


I can only ship to lower 48 states by UPS
Shipping and insurance is $14.00.
Each additional is $5.00 shipping and insurance.
Availability:
In Stock

This battery fits Harley Models:
Knucklehead Panhead
Flathead UL
ULH WL
WLA WLD
WLDR

[RvP]

I apologize for speaking about an area I am not an expert in but my opinion is to NOT use a sealed battery, gel cell or otherwise, with a 3 brush generator. You may get away with it for short trip but not for the long run.

As RPjr and Jerry Weiland pointed out sealed batteries can fail suddenly and the culprit may be due to the “zero tolerance” for overcharging when used with a 3 brush generator.

A 3 brush generator is not voltage controlled. It continually dumps current into the electrical system and relies on the battery to keep the voltage from running away. This setup requires a robust battery that can handle excessive current continually. At some point the battery gets fully charged but has to contend with still absorbing current it does not need. The excess current turns into heat and if the battery isn’t robust enough plates will buckle, open or short.

This is the reason lead acid batteries used with 3 brush generators need constant replenishment of the electrolyte and boil over ruining the paint job. The excess heat boils off the electrolyte and the vent allows the gasses to escape rather than build up pressure damaging the battery.

If you have a regulated 6V or 12V system you probably will get away with a sealed battery. In those systems the voltage regulator keeps the electrical system at a constant voltage. The battery will draw as much current as it needs to charge up to that voltage and once fully charged will not draw any more current. Therefore there is no excess current for the battery to absorb once fully charged.

For example if the 32E is setup correctly it is adjusted for a 4 amp output at the RPM you typically drive at. The ignition coil takes some of the 4 amps and the rest is absorbed by the battery. To illustrate the point let’s say the coil needs 1 amp at your driving speed, that leaves 3 amps left over. The battery has to be able to handle that 3 amps continually as long as you drive. The longer you drive the more heat is generated in the battery from a constant 3 amp charge. If the battery isn’t robust enough to handle the heat generated by the continual 3 amps it is going to fail.

If you don’t drive much with a 3 brush generator and a sealed battery you may get away with it. If you go for a 300 mile trip like RPjr did, be advised (in my opinion) your sealed battery may not be able to handle the excess current that long.

[gww]

i certainly appreciate your taking the time and your knowledge of the workings. any thoughts on what to tie into the system to regulate / isolate charge to the gel batt? thank you.

[Rollo]

Well said RvP!!! I have told folks about this to no avail and when that gel battery craps out they don't know why. Also those spade connectors break of pretty easily. Another issue with Big Twin Knuckles and Flatties and early Pans is the fact that the battery sits in the oil tank which also creates heat which helps depleat a battery. The VL"s and JD"s at least have a seperate battery box which avoids some of that.

Tom (Rollo) Hardy
AMCA #12766

[RvP]

There is no stock way to tie anything into the system to regulate/isolate the charge to the gel battery for a 3 brush generator. There is a way to retain the stock look of the generator and cutout and almost keep the non-stock parts out of view for a 32E converted to a 2 brush. I converted my 32E to 2 brush regulated operation in a unique way that does not require removing the generator, re-wiring the generator’s field windings or changing any of the stock wiring. First I will describe what I did then the usual disclaimers.

1) Read the steps carefully to get the idea of how this is done.
2) Purchase a 6V solid state regulator and mount it under the left foot board. Make sure the voltage regulator is solidly mounted where it has a good ground connection back to the engine.
3) Remove the generator end cover.
4) Remove the third brush leaving the third brush carrier and wires exactly where they are.
5) Drill a 3/8” hole in the generator cover so you can feed two wires from the voltage regulator mounted under the foot board to inside the generator. If you drill the hole in the right place it will not be obvious there are two wires running into the generator. Dress the hole so it doesn’t cut the wires and can be sealed to prevent water from getting in.
6) The voltage regulator’s armature wire goes through the cover and attaches to the positive brush terminal on the generator.
7) The voltage regulator’s field wire goes through the cover and attaches to the third brush terminal on the generator. It is recommended to put an in line fuse of about 3 amps in series with this wire but it is not necessary.
8) The voltage regulator’s battery wire is not used. Dress this wire so there is no exposed copper and fasten it under the foot board out of sight.
9) Put the generator end cover back on and seal the hole where the wires pass through. Make sure the wires are not in contact with the armature.

The 32E is now a regulated 2 brush generator and uses the cutout as it did before. Here are the caveats with this setup:

1) It is not stock but from 5 feet away it looks stock.
2) There is no current protection for the generator that most voltage regulators provide. It will act the same as the Harley 2 unit voltage regulators used on 6V Panheads. If you converted the 32E to a 2 brush generator per “Shope Dope #418” the voltage regulator used (P/N 74511-41) limits the generator current to somewhere around 12 to 13 amps. Therefore Harley must have felt the 32E can safely sustain 12 to 13 amps. If you have a stock electrical load this will not be a problem since the 32E as a 3 brush should be setup for a maximum output of 7 ½ amps when the lights are turned on.
3) If you have a mechanical cutout the voltage will be slightly above 7.2V, maybe closer to 8V. If you have a solid state cutout the voltage will be exactly where it should be.

What you will get with this setup:

1) A regulated 2 brush generator that will appear as a stock 3 brush setup unless one looks closely under the left foot board.
2) The ability to go back to a 3 brush setup by removing the regulator’s two wires and placing the 3rd brush back in its holder. Think about this for a minute……you are on a long trip and your voltage regulator dies. No problem, remove the generator end cover, disconnect the two voltage regulator wires and put the 3rd brush back in. You’re back on the road as if you never installed the regulator.
3) Better lighting with a consistent voltage.
4) Longer battery life since the voltage is regulated.
5) The ability to add some additional lighting such as bullet lights. The 32E as a 3 brush is not designed for any lighting above the stock lighting load of the headlight, taillight and speedometer light. When the 32E is a 3 brush generator and setup correctly it is adjusted for an output of 4 amps with the lights off. When the lights are turned the generator’s output is boosted by 3 ½ amps. That extra 3 ½ amps is just enough to supply the headlight, taillight and speedometer light. Any extra lighting loads will exceed the 3 ½ amp lighting boost and will rely on the battery to supplement the extra current required. This worked fine for the times as long as the extra lights were not excessive and the night ride wasn’t from dusk to dawn. With this setup there are roughly 6 amps left over for extra lights.

Spotlights were always a problem and will still be. Spotlights use around 8 amps of current. Even on a good day this is more than the 32E can handle as a 3 brush and as a 2 brush with the standard lighting. Running with the spots on continually will eventually discharge the battery and cause the 32E to get hot, maybe even throwing solder or burning out windings. There is way around this but that is another subject I am still working with.

Now for the disclaimers:

1) I have only done this on my 45 with a 32E generator. Here are the electrical specs for my 45:
- I have a solid state cutout.
- A lead acid battery that is a 12V battery cut in half to make a 6 V battery. I use an inexpensive WalMart 12V battery that once cut is dimensionally equal to the size of the 6V battery box.
- Two bullet lights on the rear.
- Modified spotlights for reduced current draw that are wired to go on only with the low beam.

I ride with the lights on and high beam all the time, even in the day time, and never had the battery go dead.

2) Know your electrical loads. Since there is no current protection do not exceed the current capability of the 32E as a 2 brush (approximately 12 to 13 amps). It is not even wise to run any generator to its maximum output continually. Figure each bullet light adds an extra amp so it should be safe to run two bullet lights bringing the max load with the lights on to 9 to 10 amps. This leaves a little bit of margin.
3) Never run with a low battery. This is a general rule for the 32E as a 3 brush and also as a 2 brush. Charging a discharged battery or a battery that is not healthy will cause the generator to get hot. This can cause solder to melt and windings to burn up.
4) I am still on the fence about using a sealed battery, even with a regulated 2 brush setup.

This is a regular runner racking up 29,000 miles in 6 years. I have no other data since I am the only one I know of using this setup therefore this is only a sample of 1. You’re results may vary from “it works great”, “what a stupid idea”, “I burned up my generator”, “I fried my electrical system”, etc. If you are adventurous and try this setup I hope it works for you as well as it does for me.

[gww]

its pretty stand up that you d take the time to share your info on what and how you have done this. and i appreciate the disclaimer also.. thank you!
the 6V solid state regulator you used, whats its size ? would it fit in the unused area of the batt. box along with a gell batt?
is this what you used?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Panhead-Spor...636#vi-content

[RvP]

The 6V solid state voltage regulator I used I bought from JP cycles. I don’t think there are a lot of companies that make them and the link you sent looks just like the one I used. I never considered putting mine in the battery box so I don’t know how tight of a fit it would be.

Mounting the voltage regulator in the battery box will require running wires from the battery box to the generator and also restrict airflow to the voltage regulator. Mounting the voltage regulator under the left foot board has a couple of advantages:

1) There is nothing in the way to snake wires through.
2) The wires will be short in length. I don’t know how well the voltage regulator will work with long wires.
3) The voltage regulator will be in a good airflow.
4) The “stock look” will be better retained.

One area I would like to address before it become a debate is why I did not switch over to 12V. My 45 is combined from a lot of different pieces which included the 32E and 6V electrical parts. I was looking for an inexpensive way to make the 6V 32E more reliable before going through the expense of converting to 12V. The cost of a 6V solid state regulator was much more wallet friendly than the cost of converting over to 12V.

I was also looking for a way to do this with the minimal amount of work with regards to taking things apart and wiring. Also not being sure of my mechanical or electrical skills I wanted to be able to easily put things back the way they were.

For me this conversion met my goals and worked. The 6V lighting is as good as it can be for 6V and I will yield to those that feel 12V lighting is better, no argument there.

One tip I will pass along to the adventurous ones is that you can try this setup before committing to a permanent installation. With the generator end cover removed and the third brush removed from the brush holder you can easily wire this up for a static test on the kick stand with the engine running. Just make sure the voltage regulator body is connected to engine ground. If it looks like it works, lights off and on, you should be good to go.

[DanM]

For my JD I have a 19 amp hour 6V gel battery from STAAB Battery- I got it on line. I have a few hundred miles so far without any problems. Over the winter I got a sold state voltage regulator conversion from Gene Harper- he puts it inside the 2 brush cutout relay, and you take out the 3rd brush as described a few posts back. I will admit there is a wire that comes out that has to go to the generator where the third brush cionnection is. I was able to sneak it into the generator without removing it from the bike. So, if you know, you see and extra wire, but it isn't too obvious. The Staab baterry has the flag type terminals. I bought from Harbor Vintage some lead castings he sells to put on a Yuasa battery- they come out the terminal cutouts in the battery box. Since the gel battery is smaller, I made a plasticv plate to fit on top and put the lead terminals into slots. I wired the battery to the lead inside, and the external wires to the terminals outside and it looks stock. I will add some pix later.

[RvP]

Dan,

I see this on Gene’s website (http://www.splitdorfreg.com/index.htm) as under development for the 32E. I also checked his order blank and the regulator for the 32E is not listed. Do you know when these will be available and the price?

Do you know if Gene has designed in current limiting and what he has it set to?

[DanM]

All I can suggest is contact him. At the time I don't think he listed the one for the JD, but he made it and fit it in the relay for me. I'm not sure what the current limiting is set at. He is super nice and will reply to emails quickly.

I will mention the guts come out of the relay, and when he is done you can't take the cover off and look inside- it is all potted.

I sent him a real Delco base and cover, he can build you one using repro base and cover.

[RvP]

Dan,

I did contact Gene as you suggested and he answered all of my questions promptly and politely, even my annoying questions! Seems like a very knowledgeable person. If you are interested for price and availability contact him at http://www.splitdorfreg.com/index.htm.

[frichie68]

ONE gel battery was enough for me. Less than 100 miles before the voltage would change from vibration- Just a tap with a knuckle and volts would read 2. Another tap, 5 volts, or 9 or back to 2. Not sure what it did while going down the road but I AM sure it wasn't good.

[gww]

update on post 5/20/2012
morn n, the battery that i was lead to belive would work that i wrote about on page one is toast. (at 200 miles). and having mr. Harpers regulator in place, would prob. rule out from being over charged. so i m back in the battery market.
i curtainly hope, do to what i wrote that i have not caused anyone else to waste there hard earned american pesos. guess i have learned more than one lesson here. sorry if i miss lead anyone. gw