Chain&axle alignement

[Chris Lastinger]

This should be simple but has kicked my ****. My chain bows left when ever I tighten up the backing plate nut and the axle moves rearward (left side). I can get it straight but it takes quite a bit if pushing the left side of the rim forward and leaves me with the drum not square to the backing plate. What gives? I've checked the drum to rim mounting to make sure they are nice and clean,the axle spins straight,the drum is original and is not bent from what I can see,the backing plate is after market(V-Twin) and the frame is Tedds also,oh the rim is original with rebuilt hub. Could it be that high dollar frame is goofy,the hub not square or am I just not doing it properly? Help!

[Ohio-Rider]

Hey Chris!
Working on that 45 again eh? Have you had the rim re-laced? Does it run true? When you say the drums not square to the backing plate. By how much? Have you tried fitting things up with out the backing plate? Would that solve the chain bowing problem..? I'm just throwing a few things out here for you to mull over. Lots of guys smarter than me here. I'm sure they'll get you squared away. Have you chosen a paint scheme for it yet? -Steve

[exeric]

It sounds like the right side axel carrier forging is bent or mis-aligned. Place a combination square on the machined surface of the forging (where the backing plate nut seats). Run the blade of the combination square through the axel openings and see if the blade is perpendicular to the to the forging. If it's not, your next task is to find out what is bent. I would suspect it's the tubing going to the axel carrier. While you're at it, you should check to see if the axel is parallel to the ground. This is a bit tricky to do because you have to have some known datums or reference points. This would be easier if the frame was bare and unassembled. It would be even easier if you work at a place that has a big surface plate, set-up blocks and height gauges. Most people don't have access to these things and neither do I so I use a nice smooth part of my shop floor. I've checked a number of frames using simple tools and common sense. Now straightening frames is a different story and requires a diffent class of tools. I would trust this to the experts unless you're a cheapskate like me. Let us know what you find.

[Chris Lastinger]

Chain Alignment

Thanks guys, Rim is original and not relaced but spins true. Drum is cocked close to 1/8" and shoes rub just a little . Maybe I'm being to picky. I'll give the combination square a try but know it will be tricky because of the way the forging flats are made. The insides are large flats but the outsides are made to fit the right spacer and axle head(as near as I can tell). Sure would have been nicer to here that the V-Twin backing plate was more suspect,not their stupid frame. Chris

[KDR]

Actually Chris, if the “stupid frame” is one of V-Twins reproductions, then that's our new frame.

I can tell you this; the frame is made with great care and attention to detail as any original....probably more in this case. Sure, there were a few problems in the beginning....that's with any new item and they’ve been rectified. It took over 10 years to recreate this frame and 1000's of man hours to design and reproduce the forgings.....some weighing in at over two tons. It took close to a year for the engineers and metallurgist to figure out the exact compounds which were used for the brazing material and quite a while longer to figure out how it was used in the assembly process.

Our engineers only produce 10 frames per month because of their extreme difficulty. Every frame after the tempering process is fit with go, no-go gages to ensure everything is in the correct spot. The frames are then set in a jig to insure straightness and correct alignment of all attachment points. The chance of a frame not meeting the standard is pretty low.

A frame is quite expensive to ship and even more expensive to return for a repair and then to ship again. I loose money on the deal, so we try our hardest to ensure the frames are correct. The problem arises when you bring in different entities……..the shipper or courier, in your case V-Twin themselves. Someone could have dropped the frame, ran over it with a fork lift….etc. There’s a million things that could go wrong from the time it leaves the warehouse in Holland till the time it gets to its destination.

I just wanted you to know.

Kurt

[Ohio-Rider]

Chris! How did your primary chain/belt line up..? Is the engine and tranny nice and parallel to each other? I would start by confirming that the engine,tranny and rear wheel sprocket are inline and parallel to each other. Once that is done then investigate what it will take to square the backing plate up to the drum.

From your description, it sounds as though your needing to force things to line up. Lets give Kurt the benifit of the doubt at this point and assume the frame is correct. That leads me to wonder if the tranny is in the frame square or is the backing plate bent a small amount. As you say 1/8" is not much, but with all those new parts I'd think things would line up better than that for ya. Keep us posted on what ya find. -Steve

[Chris Lastinger]

Frame

Sorry to offend you Kurt. Tag on the frame says it was built in Holland 10/12 05 but at that time your site said your frame was soon to be available. If it is in fact yours then is it possible that this is one of those that had a" few problems in the beginning?" You are right in saying the "entities" may be at blame since I bought it in Jan. of 06 so it sat around some where for a yr. V-Twin didn't take the time to box it when it was shipped,just wrapped in layers of bubble wrap. Originally I mounted it on a flat table very level to the floor of my shop and did lots of measure ments. Couldn't find anything catywhompus and still find it hard to believe it's off. It's the "stupid frame"to me because in order to recheck I've almost got to start from scratch and disassemble one more time. Quite a set back at this point. Lighten up and quit being so defensive. Odd you have time to check this forum but can't check you "e" mails for orders placed by little folks like me. Luv Ya! Chris

[Chris Lastinger]

Alignment

Steve , Went to great pains to ensure tranny and motor were in alignment since it's absolutely critical that mtr. sproket and trans are right or it's rebuild time for one of them. Had to do away with powder coat on all metal to metal flats to get things right. Just for info If you ever need to get that stuff off acetone works well makes it gummy and allows for easy scraping which is a lot faster than sanding. Thanks for the help guy. Like you I'm still leaning towards the backing plate or maybe the head of the axle even tho it sure spins true. Chris

[KDR]

Sorry Chris, after I re-read the post it does sound like I was being defensive, but I was just trying to prevent the normal V-Twin bashing and convey what has gone into the frame.

Was it worth it in the end......probably not, but it was done by people that have an extreme love for the motorcycle and hope to keep it alive for decades to come.

The pix I posted shows one of the very heavy forgings that was machined. Each of the connecting points for the frame as well as each tube has its own forging. The press used to create each forging stands about 10 stories tall I was told, with 3 stories under ground. When it hammers out the parts it shakes the entire plant.

I've attached another pix:

[KDR]

One more:

[Ohio-Rider]

Those are indeed some impressive forging dies. Thanks for the photos of them. I have to ask you Kurt. Are these frames really subject to the type of damage during transit that could be causing Chris all this head-ache..?

I mean if a guy buys his parts at a swap meet or back room deal then he knows going in that he's taking his chances as to the quality of the product that he's purchacing. So that person forfeited his right to complain about the part recieved.

On the other hand if a guy spends his money for a "new" reproduced part from a worldwide company should he not expect to recieve a part which is functional straight out of the box?

Don't miss understand me. I am not now nor have I ever been a V-Twin basher. Its just that many of us new players in this game of rebuilding antique motorcycles get frustrated when we recieve a part that won't fit. We start to question our own ability's. We depend on the manufacture to supply us with quality parts. Many times a part which is close enough will do and we will make it fit properly. Heck, thats one of the fun parts of rebuilding these old machines. But on other occasions we "have" to depend on the supplier for a good part. Frames are one of those parts that most of us don't have the tooling or skill to repair by ourselves. So we get frustrated some more.

I guess thats why its called "building a bike" and not "assembling a bike." Building a bike requires a lot more time and patience then assembling one. There must be a happy medium between the two options. If I find it I'll let ya all know. -Steve

[KDR]

(quote) I mean if a guy buys his parts at a swap meet or back room deal then he knows going in that he's taking his chances as to the quality of the product that he's purchasing. So that person forfeited his right to complain about the part received.

(quote) On the other hand if a guy spends his money for a "new" reproduced part from a worldwide company should he not expect to receive a part which is functional straight out of the box?

I guess the answer is yes and no. Yes you take a chance on a used item, but if the seller is an upstanding person and the damage was found by the new owner within a few days, then there should be room for negotiation on a refund or reduced price.

On the other hand, if the part is brand new then there are several options. Here are mine because this is how I do it.....I won't speculate on others. Almost all of my parts which carry the FMC Brand have a minimum two year warranty (there are a few exceptions like the Chopper Forks and a few other small items....because of the environment they are used). Some items have a 5 year and even other are guaranteed for life like our Springer forks. Almost all of my shipments are now fully insured now for their value because in 2005 I had almost $15,000.00 in loss claims with the different shippers I used. I had one frame which I had shipped to myself in Az damaged with what I could only assume was a forklift. I always install a wood brace between the rear rails where the axle would go. This was broken and the tubes were bent to where they almost touched. I had a complete sidecar assembly that was only going a few hundred kilometers into Germany that looked like it was used as a battering ram. I've had several cylinders damaged in shipment with broken fins that were in packages that could be dribbled like a basket ball.....they still managed to break them.

So, unlike the factory where I assume a manufacturer of a product would carefully deliver their own goods, I on the other hand depend on minimum wage pickup and delivery drivers, the Post Office, courier services, airport or shipping workers and warehouse employees to handle our parts. So no matter how hard I try to keep a part from being damaged, there is always someone that will try to break it. This is why everything is now shipped insured. Unfortunately, if you didn't buy it "directly" from me.....all bets are off and you have to deal with the person or company you purchased it from. In this case, if there's anything wrong with the frame, V-Twin is the one you will have to deal with.....and because of the time it was purchased.....I'm not sure what they'll do. I do know first hand, and have read this on other forums, V-Twin will repackage a returned part and resell it....even if the part doesn't fit and they were told. I've had dozens of parts which showed signs of being used or installed, unfortunately I was in Europe at the time and shipping costs to return the item in most cases was more than the part.

Large and heavy parts are an exception because of obvious reasons stated above......small parts should fit......but.......in our situation we run small "batches".....usually around 100 to 200 pieces. Every time we order a new batch from one of our engineers/machinists, there's always a chance for a mistake. We don't have super deep pockets where we can order 5000 of one item....wish we could....but with over 2000 items now, that's a lot of coin. If we ever sell a part that's not up to standard, or doesn't fit correctly....we don't do it on purpose and will do everything to correct it.

Kurt

[Ohio-Rider]

Thanks for the explanation Kurt. Its clear that you must deal with this problem of shipping on a daily basis. Its a shame that the couriers of our beloved parts don't treat them the same as we do.

Hey Chris, You had a chance to look into things this week? What did ya find out?