Info on 1939WL Rear Hub

[1939wl]

Hello,
Looking for information on what we have come to call the “Recessed Hub”. This is the next generation of interchangeable hub after the “Step Hub”. Palmer refers to the 1935-1939 Stepped Style Interchangeable Wheel Hub, (P98 1^st Edition Palmer) which I am very familiar with. Again 1^st Edition Palmer on P99 referring to the Second Type Interchangeable wheel was used from 1940 to 1943. I won’t repeat the description here to keep it shorter, but this hub we have come to call the “Recessed Hub”.
I only have access to Palmers 1^st edition, so I am not privy to any further information on this “Recessed Hub” possibly added to later editions. I often see this “Recessed Hub” referred to as the “Late 39-43 Hub”.
My question to the group is:
What was the correct rear hub used on a 1939WL? The wheels are not interchangeable because of the integral front brake hub. And when we see “Late 1939”, how late (VIN Number) are we talking that the recessed hub was introduced, or were all 1939WL’s sent out from the factory with the Recessed Hub installed on the rear, or none of them in 1939? I am asking because the 1939WL that I have has the recessed rear hub, not a stepped hub on the rear. I have owned this bike for 43 years and have pictures of it with the same wheels on it in 1943, and after. I purchased the bike from the original owner and have all of the provenance on it from new. I have no reason to believe this rear (Recessed) hub was not originally on the bike from the factory in 1939. There are not many of these little 45’s left from 1939, so it has been difficult to find confirmation.
The hubs on it now are laced to 16” wheels and are the same wheels in the 1943 pictures.
Any help on this is greatly appreciated.
Thank You

[RichO]

I believe your talking about the 2nd generation star hub from 39 to I believe 43 or so. It has the recessed zerk fitting and you can see the line where it was rolled and joined with brazing length wise.

[1939wl]

Hello RichO,
Yes, the pictures I have put up are the actual hub that is on the bike. It is the 2nd gen star hub, what we have come to call the "Recessed Hub". I am just asking when that hub was introduced, as it seems to have been on this bike since new. I want to restore the bike as a rider, not a 99 point bike, but I want details like the hubs, etc. to be correct. It is a totally correct bike as it sits now, I just wanted to know if the hub should be a "Step Hub", or is this "Recessed Hub" correct? Being on a 45, without interchangeable wheels, I thought maybe they used this "Recessed Hub" as the rear hub in 1939.
I appreciate any help, there were only 212 of these made in 1939.
Thank You

[duffeycycles]

You should read the book you have,but the later versions are far better.This is an interchangeable wheel.It fits BT[big twin] front & rear & 45" rear.The later book will show you that the hub changed sometime in 1939 not 1940.A late '39 may have been the earliest with 16" wheels, special order

[1939wl]

Thank You for the feedback duffeycycles,
There are so many "last year of" (I-Beam Springer, Springer Spring Cover, non-vented seat pan,) and "first year of" (Beehive Tail light) items in 39'. I have not had a chance to see the later versions of Palmers book, that is why I asked the forum if there were any changes particular to the 1939 year hub on the WL series. When I bought the bike 43 years ago, I questioned the sons of the man who owned it about the 16" wheels and they assured me they were on it when he bought it in 1939, that he had not changed anything since he bought it new. That is when they brought out the pictures of it in 1943. Their father was going to WWII and took pictures of himself with it, and it did indeed have 16" wheels on it. I have checked various resources through the years (The Legend Begins etc.) and the 1939 dealer order forms that I have seen do not list 16" wheels as an option until 1940. If this was purchased later in 1939, it very well may have been ordered out with the 16" wheels as I was told, or special ordered with the 16" wheels (laced to the "New for the 1939 year) Recessed Hub. The original owner was adamant about the wheels, he insisted that he bought the bike new with the 16" wheels and never changed anything, including the "Recessed Hub".
I reached out to the forum to see what experience people here have had with these early WL's.
Thank You.

[duffeycycles]

Rare ride control is optional 1939 45" only.Your 1939 spring fork should be drilled for the ride control.
The interchangeble 16" rims have a 1940 part number 3950-40 for black & 3950-40C for chrome.The front rim had same part number with an A at the end.
That means the part was first produced after the 1939 parts book was made & before 1940 book.,not that 1940 was first time that part was sold.

[1939wl]

Hello,
That is valuable information, thank you. This bike does have the rare ride control on it, one year only.
It also has the correct spring covers on the spring fork.
Thank you for the information.

[duffeycycles]

There is a person that will show an order blank & say that no WL had 16" wheels,only WLD because D in WLD meant Deluxe & the order blank says the deluxe package came with 16" wheels.The reality is the deluxe package could be ordered for any model & has nothing to do with WLD.For example a 1941 FL Knucklehead ordered with a deluxe package does not have FLD on the VIN.Also an order could be placed with 16" wheels not including the other deluxe package items.

[1939wl]

Thank You,
With that logic, I would ask then, what does the WLDD stand for.....Double Deluxe? I know that is not the case. The Codes W, WL, WLD, WLDD all referred to the engines, generally compression ratio. There were 260 Model W's made in 1939, 212 WL, 170 WS (Sidecar), 326 WLD, 173 WLDR and 273 WLDD models made. My 1940 dealer order sheet shows 16" rims available as an option for all 45 cubic inch W series bikes. I believe this became an option late in 1939 to add 16" wheels. My 1939 Dealer order sheet does not list 16" wheels as an option either in the equipment groups or in the Supplementary Equipment Items. It does list the Model WL as 45" Twin, Sport Solo, High Compression, and the WLD as 45" Twin, Sport Solo, Extra High Compression. Each was listed as Net Retail $355.00 and Dealer cost $266.25. The DeLuxe Solo Group would add another $47.00 retail ($9.25 Dealer) to the cost and the Standard Solo group was $15.50 retail, 9.25 dealer cost. Many of the items sold as a "Group" above, i.e. Standard Solo or Deluxe Solo were available individually, you just saved a few dollars buying them as a "Group".
Thanks again for the help.
I'm still trying to figure out when the "Recessed Hub" was first offered.

[Rubone]

The "D" in WLD meant high compression sport solo , it had nothing to do with deluxe or not. The "DD" in WLDD meant the new mid year big fin cylinders and aluminum heads, a first for 45s. They only used that designation in '39, from '40 up all the high compression versions were aluminum head and only used the WLD designation..
1939 WLD.jpg

[Rubone]

Keep in mind that despite their only being 212 WLs ALL models used the same rear hubs so any Big Twin SV or OHV or other 45 model also used those hubs. When they changed would have been across the board. They likely changed as 16" wheels were being tested for introduction and hubs may have failed due to greater loads on them.

[1939wl]

Thanks Rubone,
That is a great ad, thanks for posting it. I was very aware that the "D" in WLD did not stand for "Deluxe". I am still looking for the answer to my original question. Did my 1939WL come from the factory with the "Recessed Hub" the 2nd generation Star Hub, that I have referenced at the beginning of this thread? The original owner was adamant that he bought it new just the way that it sits today, with the "Recessed Hub" that is on it, and 16" wheels. He told me that the wheels had never been changed from the time he bought it new, to the time that I purchased it in 1980. I have been trying to determine whether this motorcycle was purchased late enough in 1939, that he was able to get it that way.
Thanks again for the help.

[1939wl]

Hello Rubone,
I was typing when you posted this last note. Yes, that was my concern when I bought the bike, and I questioned the owner, and his two sons about the 16" wheels. It was my understanding that the original "Step Hub" was replaced with forged outer flanges because the Step Hubs had shown failures in service. I know the dealership that he purchased the bike originally, but have no way of determining whether the wheels, and "Recessed Hub" were original to this motorcycle, as he insisted when I bought it. It is very original and complete, and they showed me the pictures from 1943, so I really had no reason to doubt them. I just wanted to check with you guys, who may have encountered similar issues with the 1939/1940 transition.
Thank You

[Rubone]

Hello Rubone,
I was typing when you posted this last note. Yes, that was my concern when I bought the bike, and I questioned the owner, and his two sons about the 16" wheels. It was my understanding that the original "Step Hub" was replaced with forged outer flanges because the Step Hubs had shown failures in service. I know the dealership that he purchased the bike originally, but have no way of determining whether the wheels, and "Recessed Hub" were original to this motorcycle, as he insisted when I bought it. It is very original and complete, and they showed me the pictures from 1943, so I really had no reason to doubt them. I just wanted to check with you guys, who may have encountered similar issues with the 1939/1940 transition.
Thank You

Depending on how late in the season it was purchased it could always have had wheels changed by the dealer to upgrade older stock and make a sale. Many possibilities...

[1939wl]

Thank you Rubone, I really appreciate it.
I remember talking with the original owner and his two boys about the bike when I bought it. The boys wanted nothing to do with it, as their Dad farmed some bigger acreage (for 1939 anyway) and used the bike to run into town, as well as tearing across the fields, much as we use ATV's on the farm now. The bike had a badly torn up Buddy Seat when I bought it, and the boys said their Dad would make them jump on behind him, and tear off across the field, and they always fell off, onto the ground! They said the seat was ripped up from holding on for dear life. Their Dad also had a 1928 101 Scout and used it the same way. He may have wanted the heavier 16" wheels on the Harley after having beaten up the Indian for years. When I bought the 1939, I saw that he had a lot of early Scout parts in the shed, but the 101 was gone, I always loved those early Scouts. I was surprised the boys did not want the bike, but they were not riders, and they had a lot of bruises from being on the 39, when they were young. That's the stuff that makes our sport so much fun, the stories and enjoying the moment....