WLA Desert Tan?

[T. Cotten]

Not to be pedantic, but "history" isn't lost when restoring most machines (Elvis's Harley not withstanding), because in most cases the history of those machines was lost long ago. Unless a surviving notebook records why the paint is worn away on one part of the tank, why the taillight assembly is from a different model, why the carburetor is missing critical parts, etc. all that is known is the current state of the machine. Because there is no known history (i.e. chronological written record of past events), there is simply no history to be lost if that machine is restored. That's not to say nothing is lost. What is lost is the "uniqueness" or "character" of a particular machine since in the end it will look pretty much like every other restored machine of that model. But, "character" to one person is rusty metal to another.

Whether the "uniqueness" of a barn find of unknown history is worth preserving is entirely a matter of taste, and taste not only varies between individuals, it changes with time. Taste is a large factor in prices paid today for as-found bikes. That easily could change in the future and over-restored bikes could again command the top prices. Or, as the boomer generation ages out of motorcycling, the next generation may not be interested in buying old bikes at all irrespective of whether they are as-found or restored.

Well, aside from nailing "pedantic", BoschZEV,...

You missed entirely the destructive aspect of the AMCA's 'restoration' rules, that effectively declare that if one single piece of the machine is 'restored', ALL OF IT must be.

Thus tonnage of original paint, plating, and other finishes, as well as substantial other clues to History, have been ground to dust, all for the sake of vanity.

Forgive me for repeating myself.

....Cotten

[BoschZEV]

as well as substantial other History, has been ground to dust, all for the sake of vanity.

Again, no history has been lost (forgive me for repeating myself).

If enjoying making our machines look as nice as possible counts as vain, just about all of us are guilty of that.

p.s. you're clearly on a mission to convert everyone to your point of view on this issue. Best of luck to you on accomplishing that. I'll leave you to your work.

[T. Cotten]

Again, no history has been lost (forgive me for repeating myself).

If enjoying making our machines look as nice as possible counts as vain, just about all of us are guilty of that.

p.s. you're clearly on a mission to convert everyone to your point of view on this issue. Best of luck to you on accomplishing that. I'll leave you to your work.

Speak for yourself alone as well, BoschZEV!

I have a proud rack of trophies for "Rat Class"!

....Cotten
PS: Anybody remember the fable of "The Emperor's Clothes?"
That fits discussions of the AMCA's restoration rules perfectly.

[exeric]

You missed entirely the destructive aspect of the AMCA's 'restoration' rules, that effectively declare that if one single piece of the machine is 'restored', ALL OF IT must be.

Thus tonnage of original paint, plating, and other finishes, as well as substantial other clues to History, have been ground to dust, all for the sake of vanity.

Forgive me for repeating myself.

....Cotten

I just read the rule book, Tom, and I didn't see an "all or nothing" statement in regards to restored motorcycles. I've apprenticed with seasoned judges and they generally have a high regard for original finishes on restored motorcycles, provided the part is respectable, and in harmony with the overall appearance of the bike. Of course, points may be deducted as per a subjective opinion by a judge, but that can be appealed, blown-off, or subject to an irrational **** fit by the owner. A 100 point bike is a clean room restoration, and creepy by most people's standards. Most people are just looking for correct, and will not defile an original finish part to satisfy some compulsive perfectionist compulsion. A few point deductions don't bother most people, though I did see a guy on his knees, crying about some self perceived AMCA injustice. Without a doubt, your system would produce the same angst in some people. Science, and logic are an interesting religion, but when you apply it to human egos, you can throw the logic part out the window.

[T. Cotten]

I just read the rule book, Tom, and I didn't see an "all or nothing" statement in regards to restored motorcycles. I've apprenticed with seasoned judges and they generally have a high regard for original finishes on restored motorcycles, provided the part is respectable, and in harmony with the overall appearance of the bike. Of course, points may be deducted as per a subjective opinion by a judge, but that can be appealed, blown-off, or subject to an irrational **** fit by the owner. A 100 point bike is a clean room restoration, and creepy by most people's standards. Most people are just looking for correct, and will not defile an original finish part to satisfy some compulsive perfectionist compulsion. A few point deductions don't bother most people, though I did see a guy on his knees, crying about some self perceived AMCA injustice. Without a doubt, your system would produce the same angst in some people. Science, and logic are an interesting religion, but when you apply it to human egos, you can throw the logic part out the window.

Forgive me for a double-triple-positive, but...

Yeah,... Right....Sure

No wonder the system is doooomed.

....Cotten

PS: Do NOT blame it on me!

[exeric]

I said to myself that I wasn't going to indulge in this debate any more, but you are fun to banter with, Tom. I do mean that with respect for you, so please take that in the spirit of a fellow club member, and motorcycle enthusiast.

[T. Cotten]

I said to myself that I wasn't going to indulge in this debate any more, but you are fun to banter with, Tom. I do mean that with respect for you, so please take that in the spirit of a fellow club member, and motorcycle enthusiast.

Screw club spirit Eric!

Does the Emperor have clothes or not?

....Cotten

[Chris Haynes]

Well, aside from nailing "pedantic", BoschZEV,...

You missed entirely the destructive aspect of the AMCA's 'restoration' rules, that effectively declare that if one single piece of the machine is 'restored', ALL OF IT must be.

Thus tonnage of original paint, plating, and other finishes, as well as substantial other clues to History, have been ground to dust, all for the sake of vanity.

Forgive me for repeating myself.

....Cotten

Tom,
That is not the case. What is the case is if the machine is restored everything must be restored. Example if your machine is restored you can't have an unrestored speedometer on it, even if you like the patina. A restored machine must be in the condition it left the factory in. No new bike ever left with a fine used part on it. Besides the AMCA does have an unrestored class for original machines.

[duffeycycles]

Many great bikes do not fit AMCA criteria.I helped a friend sell a rare knuck.I was offered low value because it did not meet judging criteria.I told those guys it was not for them.Sold it for 40K more to the guy who appreciated it for what it was[A survivor]

[BoschZEV]

I was offered low value because it did not meet judging criteria.

People who are hoping to flip a bike for a large profit, want a bike but can't afford to pay market value, or are just trying to get a great deal, have offered every reason under the sun for why it's worth only a low value. "Does not meet AMCA judging criteria," sure, why not see if that works? Every widow faces this situation ("Your late husband's 1915 Harley is old, rusty and the paint is flaking off; I'll give you $5000 for it.")

The "old, rusty" excuse isn't a hypothetical one. A few years ago someone gave my name to a widow in another state to call me for free advice on what her pre-WWI Harley was worth. She had been offered less than $10k for it by a well-known dealer who told her it wasn't worth more because it was old and unrestored. I told her that without me even seeing it I'd be happy to offer her $10k because I knew I could immediately sell it for at least twice that amount, and quite possibly a lot more.

The next time a widow calls I'll tell her the bike doesn't meet AMCA judging criteria. I'm sure she'll immediately realize that makes the bike essentially worthless and I'll only have to pay the shipping cost to take it off her hands...

[T. Cotten]

The bottom line, Folks,..

Is that the system fails its mandate.

The most common question that I am asked is: Will this carb work on my bike?
The answer is nearly always: Yes, but it will not be AMCA correct.

Nearly always the reply is: That's okay because its not going to be a "show bike".

....Cotten