WLA Desert Tan?

[T. Cotten]

What about machines that are restored from parts? Should those parts be left sitting on shelves all over the country instead of being made into an operating machine again?

Nobody has a problem with that, Chris!

Those machines honor the past when they begin making their own History.
But its silly to only re-create one mythical ideal, when so much of the past, particularly military History, deserves honor.

....Cotten

[vph-d]

Air Force Museum [old name] guidelines for the restoration of aircraft differ greatly from those of the AMCA. In the view of the AFM, aircraft still painted as they were in Squadron use are highly valued for display use, oil stains and all. If aircraft A is loaned to a museum in correct Sqdn. markings, but is too worn for a desirable display, repainting in those accurate marking is encouraged. Little value is given to how the aircraft appeared as it was accepted by the Air Corps, or Air Force; the value is on how it appeared 'in service". This, obviously, is a 180 degree difference from the AMCA.
VPH-D

[T. Cotten]

Air Force Museum [old name] guidelines for the restoration of aircraft differ greatly from those of the AMCA. In the view of the AFM, aircraft still painted as they were in Squadron use are highly valued for display use, oil stains and all. If aircraft A is loaned to a museum in correct Sqdn. markings, but is too worn for a desirable display, repainting in those accurate marking is encouraged. Little value is given to how the aircraft appeared as it was accepted by the Air Corps, or Air Force; the value is on how it appeared 'in service". This, obviously, is a 180 degree difference from the AMCA.
VPH-D

It should be obvious, Folks,

The AMCA "restoration" judging system dug its own grave: Most AMCA members "opt-out".

I have repeatedly posted an alternative suggestion.

....Cotten

[exeric]

That's what makes America so great; we're all free to do whatever we want. Me, I like belonging to the AMCA, and I think their judging system has brought many bikes back from the river Styx. Personally, I love a restored bike, but I also like originals. Out of curiosity, Tom; I would be interested in hearing your alternative. Gotta' keep an open mind

[T. Cotten]

That's what makes America so great; we're all free to do whatever we want. Me, I like belonging to the AMCA, and I think their judging system has brought many bikes back from the river Styx. Personally, I love a restored bike, but I also like originals. Out of curiosity, Tom; I would be interested in hearing your alternative. Gotta' keep an open mind

Like I posted, Eric, many, many times,...

(Doh the 'search function' is worthless) but let's start here three years ago: http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bbo...931#post132931

Why cannot the AMCA leap into the Twenty-first Century? History is being made NOW.

...Cotten

[exeric]

Let's just agree to disagree, Tom. I really don't understand your "roster" concept, or how it could be participatory, or applied. I mean, I just don't understand your whole concept, which has never been clear to me. I'll confess that I am not a big fan of AMCA judging, or any judging for that matter because it seems to bring out the worst in competitive people. I think most of us just want to enjoy ourselves, meet like minded people, and do things with old motorcycles. Politics, mission statements, and ideology really suck the fun out of life. As for destroying history; that's just part of history.

[T. Cotten]

Consider this, Eric!

Instead of members spending thousand$ to trailer to Meets hundreds. if not thousands of miles away, only to be met with judging that offends their own knowledge,
they could instead roster to a forum that not only offers reviewed expertise, but chronicles their machines' progress for posterity.

Nevermind. Let the AMCA establishment seal its own fate.

...Cotten

[BoschZEV]

roster to a forum that not only offers reviewed expertise,

What does "roster to a forum" mean? I know what the words mean individually, but they make no sense -- at least, to me -- together. Also, if "reviewed expertise" means someone's expertise has been evaluated by others, who are those others who are doing the evaluation, and who evaluates the evaluators? How does this differ from having judges at a meet?

Please explain what you mean by this latest post because it's not at all clear to me. Thanks.

[T. Cotten]

What does "roster to a forum" mean? I know what the words mean individually, but they make no sense -- at least, to me -- together. Also, if "reviewed expertise" means someone's expertise has been evaluated by others, who are those others who are doing the evaluation, and who evaluates the evaluators? How does this differ from having judges at a meet?

Please explain what you mean by this latest post because it's not at all clear to me. Thanks.

Pure and simple, BoschZEV!

Burn the horribly-flawed judging system to the ground, and open up online (a 'roster', if you will...) to allow any member to present his project's progress for review and help by all, over time, and whatever kudos are due: Awards will mean much more if 'public'. (Including records of its ongoing History, even if it gets wrecked.)

The increase in "judges" will be exponential, of course, but long overdue, yet also easily subject to review.

I have posted my proposal repeatedly under the Judging header. Its about promoting vintage motorcycling, not just trophies.

....Cotten

[BoschZEV]

open up online (a 'roster', if you will...) to allow any member to present his project's progress for review and help by all, over time

The increase in "judges" will be exponential, of course, but long overdue, yet also easily subject to review.

The 'Member Bike Builds' Forum exists, but only seven projects have received any comments this entire year. That's neither very many projects nor an "exponential" increase in the number of "judges."

Further, in many cases there's no way to know whether a comment made by any given online "judge" is even valid or not. As a famous cartoon of two dogs in front of a computer screen says, "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog."

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ternet_dog.jpg

There is no uniformity to the content, level of detail, etc. for the projects posted here or on other motorcycle sites. Far more projects are being carried out than are being posted (because of lack of time, lack of computer savy, lack of photographic skill, or whatever). Projects posted on the web provide entertainment for us, for which I'm grateful, and I hope sometimes the few comments that actually are made by "judges" prove useful for the builder. However, in no way does posting a project on the web substitute for a trained judge evaluating the final result. Both may be flawed in their own ways, but they're completely different processes that can't be compared, let alone be substituted for each other.

[exeric]

That is a good idea, Tom, but it does require a lot of input from our members. From my experience on this, and other forums, the experts do not participate. For example, I have a good friend that is exceptionally knowledgeable on 1935 Indian Chiefs. I have asked him repeatedly to help people I know who are working on a '35, or '36 and he does nothing. Yet, he is also one of the first to bitch, and moan about how the AMCA is not responsive on technical information. The talent, and knowledge in our club is incredible, yet that talent is the most tight lipped, stuck-up, arrogant bunch of elitists I've ever known. It's not national security, or a trade secret. I've been appalled at how a neophyte will ask a simple question about a bike they have, and people I personally know who have such a bike will not lift a finger to the keyboard to help. In your case, Tom, you have been exceptionally generous with your knowledge, pictures, and advice, and I know many have benefitted from your experience. Perhaps you believe everyone is as generous as you are, but that certainly isn't the case with the majority of the crème de la crème in this club. I just don't see the knowledgeable in this club contributing in any way to a national club register. I hate to be so cynical, because it is a great idea.

[T. Cotten]

That is a good idea, Tom, but it does require a lot of input from our members. From my experience on this, and other forums, the experts do not participate. For example, I have a good friend that is exceptionally knowledgeable on 1935 Indian Chiefs. I have asked him repeatedly to help people I know who are working on a '35, or '36 and he does nothing. Yet, he is also one of the first to bitch, and moan about how the AMCA is not responsive on technical information. The talent, and knowledge in our club is incredible, yet that talent is the most tight lipped, stuck-up, arrogant bunch of elitists I've ever known. It's not national security, or a trade secret. I've been appalled at how a neophyte will ask a simple question about a bike they have, and people I personally know who have such a bike will not lift a finger to the keyboard to help. In your case, Tom, you have been exceptionally generous with your knowledge, pictures, and advice, and I know many have benefitted from your experience. Perhaps you believe everyone is as generous as you are, but that certainly isn't the case with the majority of the crème de la crème in this club. I just don't see the knowledgeable in this club contributing in any way to a national club register. I hate to be so cynical, because it is a great idea.

Well poop Eric!

If I'm not in the "stuck-up, arrogant bunch of elitists" 'club', then Bobby Luland is the only one who truly appreciates me.

The judging system, as it is, dooms itself, and without evolving it into this Century, it would be best for History, the 'hobby', and as well the 'industry', to just put it to sleep.
Saving it would require a "re-allocation of human resources" from the old system to the new, and I agree that would be more than difficult.

So kiss off all of the new blood to the club, who want import model judges, affordable access, and savvy vendors with a platform for promotion.

Trust me, very few miss the judging at Davenport!

.....Cotten

[vph-d]

I miss the judging at Davenport, because it allowed me to learn from more experienced judges. I don't think every bike should be restored to AMCA guidelines, and feel that original paint period modified bikes should never be "restored", because all the history is lost.

Of the two disciplines I mentioned earlier, I much prefer the AFM [old name] philosophy, however, this is not how the AMCA Judging Program is set up.
If people want to go thru the effort to have their bikes judged, I'll do my best to judge them as fairly as I am able.
VPH-D

[T. Cotten]

... I don't think every bike should be restored to AMCA guidelines, and feel that original paint period modified bikes should never be "restored", because all the history is lost...

That's exactly what I mean, VPH-D,...

...by "opt-out".

Most do.

....Cotten

[BoschZEV]

feel that original paint period modified bikes should never be "restored", because all the history is lost.

Not to be pedantic, but "history" isn't lost when restoring most machines (Elvis's Harley not withstanding), because in most cases the history of those machines was lost long ago. Unless a surviving notebook records why the paint is worn away on one part of the tank, why the taillight assembly is from a different model, why the carburetor is missing critical parts, etc. all that is known is the current state of the machine. Because there is no known history (i.e. chronological written record of past events), there is simply no history to be lost if that machine is restored. That's not to say nothing is lost. What is lost is the "uniqueness" or "character" of a particular machine since in the end it will look pretty much like every other restored machine of that model. But, "character" to one person is rusty metal to another.

Whether the "uniqueness" of a barn find of unknown history is worth preserving is entirely a matter of taste, and taste not only varies between individuals, it changes with time. Taste is a large factor in prices paid today for as-found bikes. That easily could change in the future and over-restored bikes could again command the top prices. Or, as the boomer generation ages out of motorcycling, the next generation may not be interested in buying old bikes at all irrespective of whether they are as-found or restored.