WLA Desert Tan?

[Reddawg]

Came across this a while back. I've never seen any reference to desert tan paint being a factory option on any of the wartime bikes. I know some were painted once they were received in North Africa. So, should this be painted in my WLA project or should I find someone doing a desert bike?

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Thanks.

[Chris Haynes]

If you are restoring the bike it should be Olive Drab. No WLA ever left the MoCo in desert Sand,

[T. Cotten]

If you are restoring the bike it should be Olive Drab. No WLA ever left the MoCo in desert Sand,

RedDawg!

Seems like a good reason to opt-out of AMCA judging.

....Cotten

[Chris Haynes]

RedDawg!

Seems like a good reason to opt-out of AMCA judging.

....Cotten

If you restore something you return it to the condition it was in when it left the factory. Anything else is customizing.

[T. Cotten]

History after that be damned, right Chris?

The AMCA is their own worst enemy, and certainly the worst enemy of genuine History.

....Cotten

[BoschZEV]

If you restore something you return it to the condition it was in when it left the factory. Anything else is customizing.

This isn't a universally held opinion. "Restore" vs. "custom" isn't a black and white issue.

For example, no P-40 airplane left the factory with teeth painted on the front cowling, but the P-40 in the Air Force Museum at Wright-Patterson has that paint scheme rather than the factory one. Most reasonable people would say that the P-40 in the museum was "restored" to the condition that was used by the Flying Tigers, not "customized." If, for example, it was known a shipment of a particular model motorcycle left the factory olive drab, but they were painted desert sand upon arrival in North Africa, someone might choose to "restore" one to the way it left the factory, or "restore" it to the way they were used in combat.

[exeric]

Unfortunately, genuine motorcycle history would have only been found in a landfill if it hadn't been for restoration. Preservation is a great concept today, but in 1941, history was being melted down into weapons, and what survived that, was probably saved from a trip to the dump by an AMCA member.

[T. Cotten]

Unfortunately, Eric,

"Restored" is never "genuine".

Originality is invariably lost, and the AMCA restoration rules have insured that literally tons of original finishes and hardware have been lost to 'the sands of time', most of it much later than 1941!

....Cotten

[BoschZEV]

"Restored" is never "genuine".

Originality is invariably lost, and the AMCA restoration rules have insured that literally tons of original finishes and hardware have been lost to 'the sands of time',...

Motorcycles are mass produced objects so it's not like someone has repainted the Mona Lisa. Opinions on what constitutes "proper" restoration have changed over time, and probably will continue to change, since there is no physical law of the universe -- like gravity -- that dictates the path "restoration" vs. "conservation" has to follow.

Because of this, not everyone is likely to have the same opinion on whether every barn fresh 1935 Harley should be preserved in as-found condition, or if it's OK to extensively restore some/many/most of them to enhance the enjoyment of the present owners. Again, motorcycles are mass produced and, in any case, unlikely ever to be of interest to more than a tiny fraction of humanity. Hey, most of our wives aren't even interested in them, restored or otherwise, even though they may pretend to be.

[T. Cotten]

What is tragic, Folks,..

Is that a desert tan machine is declared a bastard, as if it should never have ever existed.

The tunnel-vision of the AMCA's "restoration" rules hurt not only the AMCA, but History's preservation even more.

Individuals are still free to 'conserve' to the best of their abilities, and the narrow dogma of this club shall vaporize in favor of common sense, leaving the AMCA behind.

....Cotten
PS: When I did my 'obligatory' WLA, the owner came to pick it up with a photo of him in Italy, on his white MP machine. I felt like a rat in a trap.
PPS: And I have a return pump with Air Force, or perhaps Navy, blue, with nothing beneath it. When I researched paints, it quickly became obvious that nearly every military installation had their own paint supplier. That should be swept under the rug?.. because the AMCA doesn't care?

[exeric]

In principal, I understand your angst over AMCA judging, Tom; but I don't understand the ongoing condemnation of it. Many of these bike were defiled many, many years ago, and often, before the AMCA even existed. Going to the earliest "Antique Motorcycle" magazines, the AMCA has always preached preservation, and encouraged members to value original paint, and finish motorcycles. However, individual owners have often found damaged, wrecked, and rusted hulks that were one step from the grave. In my case, I have had many parts that were original, but what do you do with one part for and obscure motorcycle. I've always believed that part should go to a person who is trying to build that motorcycle. I have no interest in hoarding odd-ball original finish parts, or trying to profiteer with those parts; they should go to someone with the goal of completing a motorcycle, and putting a tangible example of motorcycle history into judging, or for exhibition. In our hobby, there are unrestored examples of the Cyclone, Merkel, Henderson, R-S, Excelsior, H-D, and Indian of every year, BMW, Honda, etc. etc. People have always known the value of history and strived to preserve it. I think you do an injustice to the AMCA because without their influence, the history of ancient motorcycles would have been left to the whims of each owner without the benefit of a collective historical overview. I'll always remember a 1910 Excelsior I looked at that had been "restored" by a non AMCA member. It had been inherited by the nephew of the original owner. The nephew stripped of it's original faded paint, and used Krylon gray and plastic striping tape to make it look like new.

[T. Cotten]

In principal, I understand your angst over AMCA judging, Tom; but I don't understand the ongoing condemnation of it. Many of these bike were defiled many, many years ago, and often, before the AMCA even existed. Going to the earliest "Antique Motorcycle" magazines, the AMCA has always preached preservation, and encouraged members to value original paint, and finish motorcycles. However, individual owners have often found damaged, wrecked, and rusted hulks that were one step from the grave. In my case, I have had many parts that were original, but what do you do with one part for and obscure motorcycle. I've always believed that part should go to a person who is trying to build that motorcycle. I have no interest in hoarding odd-ball original finish parts, or trying to profiteer with those parts; they should go to someone with the goal of completing a motorcycle, and putting a tangible example of motorcycle history into judging, or for exhibition. In our hobby, there are unrestored examples of the Cyclone, Merkel, Henderson, R-S, Excelsior, H-D, and Indian of every year, BMW, Honda, etc. etc. People have always known the value of history and strived to preserve it. I think you do an injustice to the AMCA because without their influence, the history of ancient motorcycles would have been left to the whims of each owner without the benefit of a collective historical overview. I'll always remember a 1910 Excelsior I looked at that had been "restored" by a non AMCA member. It had been inherited by the nephew of the original owner. The nephew stripped of it's original faded paint, and used Krylon gray and plastic striping tape to make it look like new.

So you prefer the existing system that re-writes History,.. to a mythical ideal.. or shouldn't we evolve to at least what the "Antiques Roadshow" has enlightened the general public as to the value of saving what is an un-molested antique?

I am trying to promote "conservation" over total-molestation "restoration".

AMCA restoration rules demand everything to be burnt to the ground and re-created. This has proven to be a 'scorched-earth' policy, and Folks are somehow amazed at the prices that barn-finds now bring.

Duh.

...Cotten

[exeric]

Who knows what is history? There isn't an antique "anything" on this earth that looks like it did when it was first created. Take a 1951 H-D FL; there are more than a few "unmolested" examples out there but even those are faded and not close to what was sold in 1951. Most 1951 FLs were turned into choppers, so what do you do with them. A chopper certainly represents a cultural era, and a history that should be preserved. My '51 had over 20 holes drilled into the rear fender, and the only original paint I could find was under a fender stay. What do you do with that. I don't want to argue with you Tom, but your crusade is at least 50 years too late. The real damage was done many years ago, and it wasn't the AMCA.

[T. Cotten]

You're right, Eric!

If something is brand new, it has no History.
History is what happens afterward.

It may be a half-century too late, but History will always deserve honor, even if it happens right this minute, such as on the Cannonball.
Making all WLAs the same is boring revisionism. Conserving a Desert Tan example deserves merit, not condemnation.

....Cotten

[Chris Haynes]

Unfortunately, Eric,

"Restored" is never "genuine".

Originality is invariably lost, and the AMCA restoration rules have insured that literally tons of original finishes and hardware have been lost to 'the sands of time', most of it much later than 1941!

....Cotten

What about machines that are restored from parts? Should those parts be left sitting on shelves all over the country instead of being made into an operating machine again?