'47 UL manifold leak fix

[billpedalino]

Cotten,

The hole in the head(s) is greater than 0.250 so after cleaning up, I'm thinking that a 5/16 rivet might be a nice hand-press fit through the nipple and I should be able to expand the barrel when I buck and pean. I'm going to look at the Hanson Rivet Co. site. If no good, I'll probably buy some 3/8" round bar and turn a few rivets like you show above.

The crack (if there actually is one) in another story. My thinking is that if the rivet-to-nipple interface is correctly sealed and if the nipple threads are properly sealed, I may get away with reducing the rivet hold diameter in the head by filling with metal filler and careful reaming. We'll see after the head is off the motor and the nipple is removed.

I always appreciate you input. And thank you Martin for starting this off by sharing your exercise in patience and perseverance - Job well done Bloke!

P.S. Not to be political but I am a student politics..... After 7-1/2 years of insulting lies, manipulations and countless other shenanigans and blatant illegal behavior, the utterance of an economic recovery has transcended far past the realm of ridiculousness. Don't they know that we're not stupid? Yes, even we, the unwashed masses can make the connection between the poor quality of dumpster treasure and unsound fiscal, social and foreign policy.

[T. Cotten]

Bill!

Please do not go any larger than necessary.
Pick (or buy) a reamer just over the existing hole, and custom-cut a tapered-head rivet to that. Chances are, it will be a slip-fit anyway.
A 'sweet' fit of the rivet to the hole is critical, as you only want a simple "upset" smack on the outside (with proper anvil) to swell its 'barrel' into the hole.
And a sealer such as JBWeld or Seal-Lock is prudent, of course.

Cracks are always a tragedy. I have been blessed with luck with an isocyanate urethane watertower coating, that others snivel at.

....Cotten
PS: Folks, "Insulting lies, manipulations and countless other shenanigans" isn't really a political comment, as both political parties indulge. Vintage motorcycling suffers nonetheless.

[billpedalino]

Cotten,

I used to be employed in the steel coatings business - bridges, water towers, etc. Which Isocyanate coating do you use? Is it the Tnemec product that you asked me about a few years ago? Whichever it is, I assume its moisture-cured? Those urethane products usually prove to be quite strong.
I'm thinking that I'll probably have to buy a reamer dedicated for this particular problem as I'm also going to fabricate theb bucking bar. Can you recommend a reamer supplier who will gring one to a specific size?
By the way, those who snivel - don't learn.

....Bill

[T. Cotten]

Bill!

Yes, TNEMEC's product has changed names over the years, but it has proven phenomenal.
Omnithane 530 might have been the last one; I am still working out of gallons that I invert to keep mixed, even though they may be two decades overdue.

....Cotten

[billpedalino]

Martin,
While I've changed intake nipples before, my thin casting problem coupled with very wobbly existing hole offers a bit of a challenge and your initial situation seems to mirror mine. Needless to say, I'm trying to take every precaution by properly planning this process before I take hammer-to-hand. I only want to do this once on this machine.

Your repair/replacement process included reduction of the rivet hole diameter in the casting, which is precisely what I need to do. You stated that you used 'JB Weld High Steel', apparently a good quality metal filler. Because your experience seems to prove that this material works well, I would like to use it as well rather than re-invent that particular wheel. Unfortunately, I cannot find this product on the JB weld web site and therefore assume that its either renamed or discontinued. There now is a product called 'Metal Stick' that may be similar to what you used. Do you have the product number of the material that you used? - maybe they're now marketing it under a different name. Do you remember the maximum temperature rating of the material that you used?

If I may beg your indulgence, I also have the following additional questions:

1. You state that you worked the High Steel in a little at a time. I assume that each 'lift' was placed before the previous lift had set-up?

2. I'm thinking of filling the entire casting hole up with the metal filler (while preserving the internal threads as you did). I plan to then pilot-drill the hole and nipple together and custom-fit the rivet. Is this what you did?

3. I like how you made your bucking bar (anvil), although the I.D. of the OHV nipple is a bit larger than yours at approx 1.562" so I'll have to use 1.5" diameter bar. The perfect tool would be Tom Cotton's cam-ground anvil, but I haven't the machinery or expertise required to make one like his so some hand grinding and shimming will probably be necessary to properly buck the rivet. I assume that you had no problem keeping the rivet head flush against the inside surface of the nipple while hitting/setting the outside end?

4. Finally, how well did the JB metal filler withstand the rivet-setting? Did any material chip-out as the rived barrel expanded?

Thanks so much for your time in addressing my questions!

[T. Cotten]

Golly Bill,

I carved it with a four-inch grinder.
Here's my other crude anvils.

....Cotten

[billpedalino]

Wow Cotton!
The one on your web site looks like a cam-ground masterpiece! Looks like some hand-grinding time is in my future...

Unfortunately, after removing the head from the machine today and carefully removing the insert by collapsing it, this situation is far worse than I thought.

Apparently some previous 'mechanic' removed a previous nipple by use of (I assume) a saw blade and a chisel. The thin outboard section of the casting adjacent to the rivet hole is indeed cracked and pushed out a little toward the manifold. The thin cast, initially- threaded ridge that protrudes from the head surface, perpendicular to the edge of the manifold is breached, also in the area adjacent to the rivet hole. This is where the torrent of air flow emanated from during the pressure test. The internal threads running fore and aft of the rivet hole (along the air-stream direction) are slightly damaged, although this damage is very shallow and doesn't extend to the base of the internal threads.

At this juncture, I think have three options as follows:

1. Given that internal thread damage is very shallow, I'm thinking (hoping) that a good dose of 'The Right Stuff' will produce a seal adequate enough to prevent leakage. But...

2. The amalgamation of damage at the rivet hole has me thinking about not installing a new rivet. My gut feeling is that any further messing around in this area will surely worsen the damage. As the medics say "Do no (further) harm". Given the use of Peek seals, I generally don't have to tighten the manifold nuts excessively for a leak-tight seal. Therefore, I would think that the insert would stay seated in the head upon future manifold removals. In order to at least give the appearance of traditional correctness, the existing rivet hole in the damaged casting would be filled with metal filler and a mock-rivet inserted to look like a factory-installed rivet. I must admit that this option is a bit unsettling to me, but if it works the rear head is salvaged and the bike is back on the road.

3. Should the above not work, I would be forced to find a Harley-knowledgeable shop that could weld the rivet hole area solid (this would be a difficult weld) and re-cut the internal nipple threads. Offhand, I don't know of anyone that does this. I know that Head Hog repairs these threads on pan heads, but I don't know if he does knuckleheads. Furthermore, the last work I had done by them, while very nicely done, took about 10 months! If it comes to this option, Maybe I'll give Carl Olsen a call to see if he can perform this work, or recommend someone that does.

If anyone knows of another way out of this, I'm interested in learning....

[Rollo]

Try Paul Freibus at American Cycle Fab and see what he says. I'm sure he has come across this issue before and with all the work and research he has done on BTSV's he has some thoughts and recommendations.


Tom (Rollo) Hardy
AMCA# 12766

[T. Cotten]

Bill!

I suggest silver-solder rather than welding.
Please remember that the threads do not seal. It must seal where the nipple butts up against the casting.

.....Cotten

[billpedalino]

Excellent Point Cotton! In fact, a small portion (1/16" or so) of the protruding flange that the nipple bears upon is breached. THAT'S where most of the leak occurred! A 'dot' of silver solder should fix that right up!

I think you just saved me a lot of grief.....

[T. Cotten]

It will still be grief, Bill!

The casting and crack must be blasted and cleaned 'scrupulously', and somehow you must get your flux into it without much on the internal threads.
Every time the torch is applied its different.

I have had luck, believe it or not, dressing the internal threads with a tool made from the old nipple (attached).
The outside cosmetics are easy, if you have a steel shot cabinet.

(Nonetheless, all please note that Liberty stopped offering these services long ago.)

Good luck!

....Cotten

[exeric]

You sure come up with some ingenious tools Tom. I've used taps of the same pitch, but I like what you have made.

[T. Cotten]

Eric!

Necessity is the Mother... .. .

....Cotten

[kiwi tibbs]

Thanks Martin,
I do already own Steves book which I don't know is a good thing because its like slow torture reading it haha.

Is there any pics of your bike's on the site I can look up?

Cheers

Tony

When I say slow torture I ment I don't have a VL and it's slow torture to myself waiting to be able to afford one.
Just read what I said and it reads really bad.

[T. Cotten]

Eric!

Big taps are expensive.
This isn't a UL, but this old nipple did not go to waste.

....Cotten