Concerning paint colors offered in 1945

[Sidehacker]

Yesterday somebody was talking about what colors were offered in 45. All the restoration literature I have says they offered only the one color . But someone said the 45 parts catalogue offered three. Please give page number this really intrigued me so I called a researcher at the Harley museum . Hopefully we can get the correct answer in a day or two.

[vph-d]

As the story goes, gray was the only color available. Every factory picture I've seen shows grey with the grey tank emblems.
VPH-D

[Sidehacker]

VPH-D I agree with you however if someone has a parts manual with three color choices, I would rather be correct and have definite proof one way or the other. Besides we all know that the Harley Davidson parts manuals are never wrong .

[Ohio-Rider]

I looked into this very subject last year when preparing to paint my 1945. After months of reading and looking at every original photo I could find for that year, Navy Dove Grey was the only color that I could find that was available for that year.

[frichie68]

I think the conversation you're speaking of is referring to TANK BADGE colors. See the "Harley 1945 Tank Badge Color" thread.

[vph-d]

The factory order form shows gray as the only color available. Every factory photo I've seen shows only gray bikes with gray nameplates. I' m going to paint my 45FL gray. If you show up for judging with a 45UL in any color than gray, your 100 point bike will take an immediate 6 point hit. Paint the bike gray.
VPH-D

[Sidehacker]

VPH-D I am absolutely painting my bike grey( 45 UL. ) but I don't know if some people get off on proving people wrong or what but I will only give out information when I'mAbsolutely sure it's correct . I don't know who it was now but yesterday or the day before some cat said they offered three Colors in the 45 parts manual. I ask for a page number but I haven't seen it yet. But I want to know if I've been giving out the wrong info. I don't think so , but I just want to be absolute. Now what shade of grey. The researcher at the museum said basically the same thing you and I said

[46WL]

Here is what you read, but Robbie is talking about the tank badge colors, not the colors of paint offered for the sheetmetal.

The 1945 parts book lists all three colors, and all have '44 part numbers. It was issued in June '45. The Accessory parts lists do not cover tank badges so the '45 accessory list is no help. I looked through all the '44 and '45 Motorcyclist magazine and not a single picture is in there on them. The Enthusiast is no different. So unless an original paint version with known provenance appears I have no more info. Sorry!
PS, I used black ones on my '44UL.
Robbie

[Chris Haynes]

VPH-D I agree with you however if someone has a parts manual with three color choices, I would rather be correct and have definite proof one way or the other. Besides we all know that the Harley Davidson parts manuals are never wrong .

As far as I know there was no parts book for 1945. They continued to use and reissue the 1941 book into 1947.

[jwl]

Painting your bike gray is a safe bet for 1945. However I painted mine black and did not get a 6 point deduction. We know there was black enamel available because the frames and air cleaner covers were black. I also brought my copy of Jerry Hatfield's book titled INSIDE HARLEY DAVIDSON along to the judging and used the picture on page 222 as evidence of at least one black bike in 1945. The photo was processed in November of 1945 and shows a black bike with a telescoping front fork. That particular bike also has chrome tank badges. I also have a copy of the book BLACK HILLS MOTORCYCLING and there is a picture on page 33 of the first bike sold by Mat-Kirk Cycle Co. to the Rapid City PD. It is police gray and has chrome badges also. VIN was 45U1143 and was shipped from the factory on 10/27/44.

The factory order form shows gray as the only color available. Every factory photo I've seen shows only gray bikes with gray nameplates. I' m going to paint my 45FL gray. If you show up for judging with a 45UL in any color than gray, your 100 point bike will take an immediate 6 point hit. Paint the bike gray.
VPH-D

[Rubone]

Then this must be a figment of my imagination!

[Chris Haynes]

That doesn't look imaginary to me.
Notice that is June 1945, almost into 1946 production.

[Sidehacker]

You guys are missing the point I'm not talking about a 45 made in 44 . I'm not talking about a chrome badge on a police bike . In 1945 all chrome shops across the entire united states was involved with the war effort. Nothing but military was getting any new raw materials . If Harley wasn't producing bikes for the military they probably would have gone out of business . Also mostly only woman were working in the plants. Now pleas don't show me a 1945 assembly line picture with a man on it cause I'm sure there were 4F men working in the plant and men who were too old to go into the service. And I'm not trying to upset the opposite sex but in 1945 I'm sure the management in the factory was all men . Now I'm sure ther were tons of chrome parts on the shelves from previous years and lets face it some large police departments might be able to get some previously ( befor 45 ) made chrome on their bikes because of the quantity they purchase . But for the regular joe on the street civilian model these things were not available. Just cause a parts catalogue says they have certain colors for models made from 41 to 45 doesn't mean they were available . They were not . But I bet they did have unopened cans of paint in the paint dept. I guarantee you they couldn't get any that wasn't already in existence at the factory. Lots of grey though because the navy used thousands of gallons every day . I started this discussion I don't want to make any enemies but this is the way it was . I can show you examples of every parts catalogue saying there are things that really aren't in existence mostly cause they print those catalogues for more than one year and in those days it was real easy for the amount of information they had to transfer from printed order forms to the parts catalogue they bundled things so the catalogues weren't five thousand pages long . Now if we can just wait a few days I will have proof from the factory and the Harley museum . To prove this . You guys aren't wrong but your just not right . I do understand why you are saying what your saying . You aren't taking the war into count , this wasn't a Vietnam or a Afghanistan . The whole country was involved . If you were old enough to walk you were collecting scrap or licking stamps or passing out food or something to help our country win the war effort . If you showed up somewhere with a new vehicle with a lot of chrome your neighbor would have shuned you if not something worse for acting like you were not pitching in . My own father , who at the age of fourteen looked eighteen , and worked in a grocery store before and after school bagging groceries. After two or three instances where woman came into the store and spit on him because they thought he wasn't fighting over seas because he was a coward. They had to put him in the stock room so people couldn't see him. This was a all out effort. Any way if the factory says im wrong I'll buy you all a drink and give a formal apology . But I'm not I've researched this. And I'm sorry black is just wrong . The judge at that event probably didn't know his head from his ass . Sorry Until tomorrow

[sirhrmechanic]

Won't disagree with most of what you have to say, Sidehacker.

But a couple of points I'd like to jump in on. First, by 1945, there was some movement towards civilian production... Europe was either over or almost over. And while a massive effort was being planned for invasion of mainland Japan, the home front was starting to look past war. That said, you are right saying that the War Production Board/Office of Production Management were still tightly controlling strategic materials and things like motorcycles were not what the 'average Joe' could get.

I would also say that while the country was far more involved in the WW2 conflict than in later (and earlier) conflicts, the home front does not deserve total 'rose colored glasses' historical coverage. There was a huge black market. There was a percentage of the population that dodged the draft, lined their pockets, made annoying political decisions, ignored the rules, etc. etc. By late 1944 the war had become 'the new normal' and people were living their lives. It was not an 'all in' conflict as is often believed. Best way to be describe it may be 'more in than ever before or since' conflict. The things that happened to your dad... I wouldn't doubt that for a second. I bet he spent many a night trying to figure out how to lie about his age and get into the service, too! But for every youngster like that, there were plenty of people who found ways to avoid front lines or service at all.

Last... though the 'average Joe' could not get a bike... there were lots of people in the USA who were not 'Average Joe's' Much like Vietnam, the 'fortunate son' concept was very much alive and well. And Herbert Wagner documents it in at least one of his books, talking about how the "Sons of Senators", movie actors, people in influence in government, etc. were able to use their positions and influence to get motorcycles even during the height of war production. And one can understand why... Harley-Davidson wanted/needed war contracts (and the country needed H-D to have them.) If making a special bike for the son of Senator Thurston Plushbottom Blivetsphincter III was a way to get a vote for a contract... or if it made good publicity to see actor/war hero Major Clark Gable sitting on a Harley after his discharge in 1944... well you can bet the factory would accomodate. BTW, Gable is a hypothetical example... I don't think Gable got a bike during the war years. But things like that happened, bet on it. Herbert Wagner can probably provide some more specific examples from his research. So if Senator Blivetsphincter's son wanted a black bike... my bet is that a can of paint and some chrome bits from a parts shelf or a dealer inventory would have been found and a couple of workers would be diverted from other projects to make that bike happen. And the shameless little fortunate Son would have thought he was just the cats a** riding his bike around while others were serving. La plus que ca change, la plus que c'est la meme chose!

This is from memory and I'd have to look it up, but I also seem to recall that by 1944, H-D had mostly fulfilled their war contracts for WLA's. So they were very much looking for ways to keep their workforce busy and keep in a flow of work. Remember that w.out contracts, OPM gave you nothing. No raw materials, no heating oil for your plants, no tool bits for your machines... you were out of business. So if your contracts were ending, you were darn sure beating the bushes (and lobbying) for other work. So were your competitors. And H-D learned a great lesson during/after WW1, which was that contracts meant life. Indian and others didn't get the same contracts... and many went under... Indian almost went under. H-D knew how to play the game. And lobbying and influence peddling were VERY prevalent in WW2. In fact, fighting that corruption was what put a back-bench junior Senator named Harry Truman into the forefront of the effort to battle corruption... and ultimately put him into the White House when he was Roosevelt's running mate in '44.

Keep in mind, too, that by late 1944 and into 1945, the OPM was giving companies waivers/permission to start developing new products, models, designs for postwar production. This was happening not just in the US but in the UK. Permission was being given to do 'postwar' R&D, get ready to kickstart (pardon the pun) a consumer economy and avoid the postwar recession that had marked WW1, etc. As a result, companies could get limited access to materials and were allowed to assign manpower to 'postwar consumer products'. Could some of that effort result in bikes that got 'out' to special customers, dealers, etc. Again, you bet. Bikes weren't collectible then, they were surplus inventory that could be turned into cash, preferably as soon as possible.

BTW, for references to my above statements, take a read through the book "Why the Allies Won" by Richard Overy. It's part of the reading for the Masters of Military History program in which I am currently enrolled. Overy does an outstanding job talking about the home front in realistic (and un-sugar-coated) terms. One of the interesting statements in Overy's book (and I'll paraphrase) was that at an economic level, 'the US won the war with about a 50% effort." Compared to the UK/USSR, the US still had a massive amount of strategic reserve/capacity that it could have brought to bear. Again, as you point out, the effort was massive. Like nothing before or since. But the US population still wasn't nearly as involved at the economic or even civilian level as the UK or USSR. Of note, even Germany kept up a huge civilian economy until 1942/43... and it was not until Speer took over production in Germany that they even closed down civilian production of many items...

So while I mostly agree with most your thoughts, Sidehacker, one lesson I learned a long time ago in the world of antique bikes and antique cars is "Never say Never and Never say Always." Because just when you think something is 'always or never' there will be an exception that presents itself. I like it when judges recognize this fact... alas not all do. And sometimes documentation is hard to come by and the owner has to do some serious historical research/forensics or digging to prove something 'was or wasn't.' But that is part of the fun of the hobby and of history in general.

All that said, good post and well-thought-out! Look forward to see the factory proof, because anything that adds to the knowledge or discussion is always welcome and contributes to more knowledge for all of us!!

Cheers,

Sirhr

[vph-d]

I would think the photo on pg 222 of Hatfield's book is of a 46, since the 45 model year ended a couple months earlier. The machine is obviously some kind of prototype, note the dash board's similarity to the production -47 piece.
I don't have a hard time believing some 45 police bikes were painted black. The MOCO was very cooperative with it's police customer's requests.
VPH-D