What is a production motorcycle?

[pem]

When is a motorcycle considered to be a "Production" motorcycle? When it is produced no matter how many are made? 1, 2, or 500! When it is produced for sale to the public?

When is it a prototype? When it is made in a factory? When it is made in a garage? When the builder is incorporated? Does it really matter?

The reason I'm asking is that I just recently found 48 "new" motorcycles made in Wisconsin
prior to 1914. Most are one of's the way it looks but some were made in batches of 2, 3 and 4. Are they considered homebuilts only?

Some had cool names like the "Meator", the "McLeod" and the "S. & S.".

Dick Werner

[exeric]

That's a great question. It brings to mind the Wood that Jerry Ottaway owns in Kansas. It was featured in 'The Antique Motorcycle' with a period article about it's creator. It was a beautifully built, original creation that was unique for it's time. I guess his plans were to secure funding and go into production but that didn't happen so there is only one. With that kind of documentation and amount of original/unique castings, and engineering, I would consider the Wood to be a true Marque. The same for the Traub that Dale Walksler has in his museum.

[rwm]

if we could only go over this like judging or politics.would it be one bike made?10 bikes made?only raced? backyard built? factory built? built in a factory after hours? no employees? 5 employees?

[pem]

if we could only go over this like judging or politics.would it be one bike made?10 bikes made?only raced? backyard built? factory built? built in a factory after hours? no employees? 5 employees?

Huh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rwm]

i think someone here in the office hit submit to my out line .can a one of a kind bike be called a production bike? a lot of guys made one or two in the early 1900's they just never got the funding. if one group makes a bike and adds small changes to each and every bike after the next are they production or on offs?. most be more then 2 or 3 people who care.

[c.o.]

Dick.... 48 new makes of motorsickle prior to '14! Do tell.... It seems to me that a famous Milwaukee brand put out in the neighborhood of three bikes their first year (not 1903..) and they called it production. Now was that acceptable because they built upon their models year after year? I think even if it was built out of a backyard and there was only one bike built it was still produced......... Just a Sunday morning idea.... I'm gonna chew on this one for a bit...

[Chris Haynes]

Was the no longer existing 1903 bicycle with a Harley-Davidson motor on it a production or a prototype motorbike? Obviously it was not a production model as none, other than the prototype, were produced. Was the motorcycle H-D built in 1904 a production model? Once again no others are known to have been produced. My thought is that a production model was one made as a model to be sold to the public. Or in the case of some models to the military. Prototypes like the WSR are not production models. The shortest H-D production run I know of were the 10 1951 WLA Type II's.

[pem]

Dick.... 48 new makes of motorsickle prior to '14! Do tell.... It seems to me that a famous Milwaukee brand put out in the neighborhood of three bikes their first year (not 1903..) and they called it production. Now was that acceptable because they built upon their models year after year? I think even if it was built out of a backyard and there was only one bike built it was still produced......... Just a Sunday morning idea.... I'm gonna chew on this one for a bit...

Hi Cory, 48 new makes but are they considered production? This is by no means a complete list. There were more. Here are some names; the "Wausau" from Wausau, Wi., The "Pichard" from Superior, Wi., the "Anton Zupaurisch" from Milwaukee, Wi., the "H. & L. from Kenosha, Wi., the "Shoe" from Madison, Wi. made by the Shoe Co., etc. Some were made using a Wagner frame and a Merkel motor. Some built 2 or 3 bikes but most were just one of's. Some built more! This is from the 1909-1911 time period and not all motorcycles were registered yet. I'm sure there were "outlaws" that figured they didn't have to register their bikes back then too.

How many of these bikes had their own motors? My guess is that most used motors that were laying around and put them in frames that they either made or bought from a catalogue. But I have no way of telling at this point for sure. Most all early registrations had a serial number. Some used Ser# 1 and others had much higher serial numbers. We know the "Wiggert" from La Crosse, Wi., which was made in 1901, used a motor that Mr. Wiggert built himself because we have a newspaper article describing it in detail.

I was really surprised to find all this new information(new to me at least). It got me thinking and wondering. I just went through the 1912 registrations and didn't find nearly as many homebuilts as I did earlier. Maybe the regulations were changed? We just don't know.

And of course where are they now. Some of these "orphan" motors and frames that show up at the meets now make complete sense to me. These "homebuilts" were everywhere. The list I have is just from Wisconsin! There had to be hundreds of motorcycles made in the U.S.A. that were lost to history.

The "Traub" and the "Wood" that were mentioned by Exeric are a prime example and I don't doubt their authenticity one bit.

The early registrations had serial numbers so it is possible to identify bikes that are around today and find out who owned them when they were new. Unfortunetly the later registrations don't contain serial numbers. Just the owner, address, make, hp, and reg. #. But you can at least tell if it was a single or a twin. So if you have an old Wisconsin plate it's possible to find out who it was issued to and what kind of bike it was on. I was able to link a couple of photos I have of early bikes to the serial #.

It's something to do on cold winter days to keep me sane. So far it's working! Or Not!

Dick

[pem]

i think someone here in the office hit submit to my out line .can a one of a kind bike be called a production bike? a lot of guys made one or two in the early 1900's they just never got the funding. if one group makes a bike and adds small changes to each and every bike after the next are they production or on offs?. most be more then 2 or 3 people who care.

Hi Rob, I am hoping more than 2 or 3 people care. One of the reasons I started this thread was to get some new members from our club interested and start researching in their own states. It's time consuming and you have to get lucky once in a while but a lot of states have old registration records at their historical society's. That's where I went. Herb told me about these records years ago and I finally sat down and went through some of them. I think it would be good to have a central record depository with the different state records. And who knows what other types of records might be found.

Dick

[pem]

Was the no longer existing 1903 bicycle with a Harley-Davidson motor on it a production or a prototype motorbike? Obviously it was not a production model as none, other than the prototype, were produced. Was the motorcycle H-D built in 1904 a production model? Once again no others are known to have been produced. My thought is that a production model was one made as a model to be sold to the public. Or in the case of some models to the military. Prototypes like the WSR are not production models. The shortest H-D production run I know of were the 10 1951 WLA Type II's.

Hi Chris, I have to agree with you on this one. I have always leaned towards the belief that in order to be called a production motorcycle it had to be sold to the public. Even if only one was made. It was produced to be sold. I know it's a word game but there is a distinct difference between prototype and production. A lot of prototypes ended up in the scrap heap and we will never know they even existed. I would tend to think that most production
motorcycles were registered(at least from 1909 on in Wis) and that would leave a record.

Dick

[exeric]

I'm thinking of two other bikes and wonder where they fit: Harry Buck's Spiral and the Franklin that Bollenbach had. Both claimed late 1890s origins. As for the deffinition of production; I think most builders had selling their creations in mind. Even Harley-Davidson could have been an obscure footnote in history if a series of events had gone differently. I really think the committment to patterns for castings is the big difference between a talented craftsman having fun and a serious attempt at doing something with potential marketability. Maybe I've answered my own question about the Spiral, and the Franklin.

[rwm]

here is a list that has some links and some names of makers of bikes from around the world.it's great for a rainy day. some bikes are new. some old take a look.
http://www.ozebook.com/a-z.htm

[Chris Haynes]

The Traub twin exists. Dale has an article, from 1916 if memory serves, that talks about a Traub single. They even came up with a picture of the Traub shop in Chicago. I wonder if one of the bikes in the photo is the Traub single? Still It has to be a prototype as no others are known to have existed.

[HarleyCreation]

Great questions!

When is a motorcycle considered to be a "Production" motorcycle? When it is produced no matter how many are made? 1, 2, or 500! When it is produced for sale to the public?

Good question. I would say "produced for sale to the public" is a useful standard instead of just one or two for youself and your pal. Also if they were advertised, patents taken out, produced to make a profit, named in a magazine, and/or built over a period of time. But there is a very fine line.

When is it a prototype? When it is made in a factory? When it is made in a garage? When the builder is incorporated? Does it really matter?

To me prototype suggests the original one of a model that achieves "production," even if 2-4 limited. The word seems to mean: "the one that came before." I don't think it matters where the proto is made or if the builder is incorp or not. The Neg. 599 Harley would certainly qualify as the prototype, but not the earlier motorized bicycle.

The reason I'm asking is that I just recently found 48 "new" motorcycles made in Wisconsin
prior to 1914. Most are one of's the way it looks but some were made in batches of 2, 3 and 4. Are they considered homebuilts only?

Some had cool names like the "Meator", the "McLeod" and the "S. & S.".

Dick Werner

I'd say that some of those are "homebuilts" but still deserve recognition in a listing of Wisconsin built motorcycles. But if they have a trade name: Meator, S&S, Advance, etc. and you can prove more than 1 was built (and some were given serial numbers, right?) then they might deserve listing as a small producer. Less than Comet, but more than Mr. Wiggert. You can always put a question mark by them.

Excellent discussion!

[pem]

Hi Herb, the S & S, Mcleod and Advance all made more than one motorcycle and sold them to
the public. But exactly how many may never be known. We only have the records of the
bikes that were registered and you know there had to be more. I don't know how strictly the
laws were enforced in 1910. And you really had to wonder if all these backyard tinkers and
small garages really built and designed their own motors. I sure wish we had photos.

Dick