"Finish" on 1907-'08 Harley-Davidsons?

[HarleyCreation]

On another thread I noticed some questions about how the 1907-'08 model Harley-Davidsons were finished. Going thru some files last night produced photocopies of original Harley literature. Material that probably didn't get into the "At the Creation" book on early Harleys and that may shed light on the matter. These are EXACT QUOTES:

From: 1907 Harley-Davidson Catalog

"The machines are finished in black or Renault gray. All bright parts are nickel plated. The engine casing, which is of aluminum, is buffed and highly finished and will not tarnish or become dulled in appearance."

From: 1908 Harley-Davidson Catalog

"All machines are finished in Renault gray with carmine striping, or in piano finish black, and all bright parts are heavily nickeled over copper. The aluminum casing is highly polished, adding greatly to the general appearance of the machine."

Notice here that the 1908 model was still offered in black. That's interesting. Also note the terms "buffed and highly finished" and "highly polished" when referring to aluminum crankcases. That is still somewhat open to interpretation, but clearly they were attempting to make these bikes look pretty.

Hope this helps.

[pem]

Hi Herb, I've had this unpublished photo for quite a few years now and it shows the motor and handlebars in detail and the finish is quite good. You can see they are highly polished and finnished. Look at the carb too! And the fork crowns. This is a 1912 model I think. The exhaust pipe is also highly finnished. It sure is possible they were doing the same thing in 1907 and 1908.

Dick

[silentgreyfello]

Hi Dick, That is a great photo! Look at the striping detail. Most restorations are incorrect with the stripe around the toolbox door area where the wide stripe isn't continuous. Also, on the rear leg of the fork, the stripe is unlike the front leg. I have always tried to go off of orig paint bikes or photos, and yours is a great one! The bike is a 1911 model. Notice how the tank does not slope at the back (1911 and earlier) and the downtube is straight (1911 and later). Sorry about getting off the thread topic! I would agree that most orig paint HD's were plated with shiny "bright" nickel, and the cases are always polished, though some resto's may be a bit much when you can use it as a mirror.

[c.o.]

Great thread Herb! That's some very interesting info that you posted!

Dick! Awesome pic! I'm gonna dream about that bike tonight!!!!

[pem]

Hi Dick, That is a great photo! Look at the striping detail. Most restorations are incorrect with the stripe around the toolbox door area where the wide stripe isn't continuous. Also, on the rear leg of the fork, the stripe is unlike the front leg. I have always tried to go off of orig paint bikes or photos, and yours is a great one! The bike is a 1911 model. Notice how the tank does not slope at the back (1911 and earlier) and the downtube is straight (1911 and later). Sorry about getting off the thread topic! I would agree that most orig paint HD's were plated with shiny "bright" nickel, and the cases are always polished, though some resto's may be a bit much when you can use it as a mirror.

Thanks for the info. I am just a novice when it comes to early Harley's. That photo came from the Albert Toepfer collection at the Milwaukee County Historical Society before Harley-Davidson obtained the collection. It was 1,000 glass plate negatives. I looked at everyone. Awesome! It would answer a lot of everybody's answers. I wish the Motor Co. would digitize it and make it available to everybody.

[HarleyCreation]

Great photo!

Any idea who the guys in the picture are? Most of those Toepfer photos showed factory guys.

Finish looks beautiful, but the paint doesn't look real high gloss. And like silentgrayfellow said, even if the aluminum was "highly polished" it probably wasn't over-done to the extent some modern guys do it. The original people who build these bikes had good taste. They didn't live in a glitzy special-effects world like we do.

Hi Herb, I've had this unpublished photo for quite a few years now and it shows the motor and handlebars in detail and the finish is quite good. You can see they are highly polished and finnished. Look at the carb too! And the fork crowns. This is a 1912 model I think. The exhaust pipe is also highly finnished. It sure is possible they were doing the same thing in 1907 and 1908.

Dick

[pem]

Here's the whole photo. My quess is it was taken at the Wis. State Fair Park in West Allis, Wi. It wasn't that far from Juneau Ave. My notes show the 3 people in the photo are Edwin Becker, Frank Ollerman and Ray Comstock. If I'm right Becker is on the left. All three worked for HD at one time. Comstock was also associated with The Waverley Mfg. Co. and Perry Mack and raced motorcycles for both Harley and Waverley. By the amount of tracks in the dirt I would say they were out testing the day the photo was taken. I just wish I had made more copies of the Toepfer collection before it was acquired by HD. They weren't cheap and it would have cost a bundle.

Dick

[Bill N.]

Great thread here!
For a while I've been studying some of the early Harley photos trying to figure out finishes on these bikes. In order to bridge the gap between what we see and what is, we have to take a look at both photography and have an understanding of the early paint process...
On the paint process, here is what we know. Early paints were laid down flat / semi flat depending on distributor. (I believe Dupont was semi, but don't hold me on it.) Harley applied at least three coats on it's bikes. They also applied two or three "hand rubbed" coats of varnish or shellac. We'll refer to both as varnish for simplicity. Here is where the problem begins. Varnish back then was an organic product with no UV protection components mixed in. After each coat setup, they would sand that coat. The final finish was very glossy, but thats about all you got...
Now jump to photography of the era. Even though photography had been around for a time, the film/glass plates were not as sensitive (ASA / ISO ratings) as any modern (post WW 2) films. Most quality photos back then were taken in daylight rated at 5600 kelvin for the northern hemisphere. Heres where the fun begins...

Varnish being organic would reflect a certain amount of that sunlight... For examples of such photos, see page 40 of WilliesG's "100 Years" I'd attach photos, but scanner is on the lam.
Shots taken at certain times of the year, and times of the day would easily show the amount of gloss in varnish. But...

Varnish being organic would also "hold" atmospheric dust. When the dust sits on the varnish finish, its reflective qualities are reduced.... Dust / dirt would break the finish down and over time, and with constant exposure to the sun and elements, the varnish would break down and evaporate into the atmosphere... These are two reasons finishes would appear flat. The other is what I call 'flash through.' If a shiny surface is dusty / dirty, and a photo is taken in strong sunlight, the dirt/dust disappears and you will actually record the next surface absorbing that light - the paint. See page 39 of same book... Almost all 9 individual shots of bikes look like flat and dull due to one of the above reasons or another...

Varnish has also messed up many a modern restorer... Some survivors from the "Silent Grey Fellow" era have original finish on them. They appear greenish in color... When varnish or even shellac is exposed to UV light it will yellow. Yellow on top of grey appears green depending on how exposed the bike was. See page 25 of the Harley Archive book and you will notice this slight effect on the upper right hand corner on the 1909 twin tank where some varnish was lost and original paint exposed. You'll also notice the 'dull' finish is really a dirty yellowed varnish. Truth being, the bike really is quite dirty, just don't tell them that... Thats the dust of history !

Well I hope this kinda helps and doesn't sound like that chemistry class in high school that made us all break out ! If the info above opens new doors into the subject on finishes, great! For the record, I got a D- in chemistry...

[silentgreyfello]

Bill, fastinating stuff. I have two orig paint HD's of the same year and very close in serial number. One looks greener. As I have studied them, the nicer one does have the varnish more evident, which has yellowed over time. My theory is that the grey does have some blue in the formula. Yellow over blue gives a green hue for the greenish tint, though sitting alone, it looks grey.

[talbot-2]

In November I removed the original (1912) Goodyear tires from my original paint (with a bit of rust) 1912 H-D, X8, only to find that the paint on the inside of the wheel rims appeared to be a beautiful shade of green. Now I understand why. Thanks for the analysis and explanation. It certainly makes good sense. I installed new Coker "G & J" white tires and it again looks like a motorcycle.

[HarleyCreation]

Here's the whole photo. My quess is it was taken at the Wis. State Fair Park in West Allis, Wi. It wasn't that far from Juneau Ave. My notes show the 3 people in the photo are Edwin Becker, Frank Ollerman and Ray Comstock. If I'm right Becker is on the left. All three worked for HD at one time. Comstock was also associated with The Waverley Mfg. Co. and Perry Mack and raced motorcycles for both Harley and Waverley. By the amount of tracks in the dirt I would say they were out testing the day the photo was taken. I just wish I had made more copies of the Toepfer collection before it was acquired by HD. They weren't cheap and it would have cost a bundle.

Dick

Edwin Becker's nickname was "Sherbie" so we are looking at "Sherbie" Becker in that photo!

From another thread in Parking Lot Chatter Chris posted the 1990s article about the supposed "hidden room" at Harley-Davidson's red brick factory. Sherbie was the guy would told the story to Squibby in the 1920s.

Why would a guy who worked at H-D since at least 1907 and is seen in many publicity shots like this one lie? He might of, but I don't think so...

See post 21:

http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bbo...t=12218&page=3

[HarleyCreation]

Bill N.:

Great explanation on early paints, varnish, light & photos. All very logical and well thought out and studied. Thanks!

This is a quote from the 1916 H-D catalog that I posted on slojoe's topic:

"The last coats of enamel were most carefully applied by hand to insure an even distribution over all parts. Each coat of enamel was very carefully hand-rubbed by expert finishers."

This sounds like the paint was put on with a brush ("by hand") and that it was "sanded" (hand-rubbed) between coats.

There are photos of early Harley spray booths. I wonder what the dates on those are?

Opinions about when/if Harley brush painted their bikes vs. spraying them? Is that known for sure? Model year dates, etc?

[silentgreyfello]

There are photos of early Harley spray booths. I wonder what the dates on those are?

Opinions about when/if Harley brush painted their bikes vs. spraying them? Is that known for sure? Model year dates, etc?

Not sure when HD started spraying, but here is a link for the first commercial spray gun in 1890
http://blog.elliottequipment.com/blo...ay-gun-in-1890

[Chris Haynes]

This is the earliest photo I have of spraying. That booth shows years of use.

[Bill N.]

I'd hate to ASSume anything about what the early Co. did, but we might be able to conclude that in the original shed, and addition, there was not a lot of room to spray anything... Once they were into production around late 06 with orders growing, I'd think it would have made sense to embrace spraying as a cost effective way to finish bikes. I would be rather confident to say that by 1907, that was the norm.
The 1916 literature might be 'slightly' misleading. Certainly, the bikes base coat was sprayed for uniformity. I'd even venture to guess that the topcoat of varnish or shellac was sprayed also. You'd get better glossy results sanding "by hand" in between applications of varnish. Even today with wood finishing, sanding each shellac coat makes for a more durable, harder, glossier finish. Somehow I think the mere meantion of 'hand finishing' in the respective literature was an attempt to make the prospective purchaser feel as if he were getting something 'special' by way of craftsmanship. The best way to achieve "even distribution" as claimed would be by spraying and not by brush. Also, I'm not saying that they didn't hand rub every base coat, but hand rubbing every varnish coat serves a better purpose. You run the risk by rubbing every base coat of getting thin edges and exposing bare metal. If there was a run in the basecoat, they certainly rubbed that out.
Here's something else to note : After 1910 wide stripes started to appear on tanks and sheetmetal. These wide stripes were almost always surrounded by thinner stripes. BOTH stripes were applied by brush via hand. BUT, before the thinner stripes could be added, the wider ones had to be sanded...and as we all know ( whoever paints) you generally end up sanding some of the basecoat here and there. Once the thin stripes were on with decals, everything went under varnish...
I'll try to attach a photo of the hand stripes for reference...
Bill