popes O.H.V.

[c.o.]

Did P.E.M. stand for Perry E. Mack? ...bill

That would be my guess. Was it ever explained that way in literature Dick or are we just assuming......... Being that the P.E.M. name was dissolved shorty after Mack left the company it only stands to reason.

[c.o.]

Bill, if you want a good read on the story check out the Winter 2004 issue!

[c.o.]

There's a great old racer pic here........ http://thevintagent.blogspot.com/200...on-v-twin.html

[pem]

Did P.E.M. stand for Perry E. Mack? ...bill

That's correct Bill. The line from the Waverley factory is that they changed the name to honor Perry but in another newspaper article from the Cambridge newspaper they said it was because of copyright infringement on the Waverley name. I believe the second story.
By October of 1912 Perry was gone from Jefferson and back in Milwaukee and Frank
Kitlitschko was now at Waverley making the new Jefferson models. Perry was in Jefferson
for just about a year. Almost all of the motorcycle encyclopedias I have seen have got
the facts about Perry and his motorcycles wrong. There was a lot of behind the scenes stuff going on we will never know about. And the Comet connection with Perry, Frank and
Waverley has always stumped me. I know Herb doesn't always agree with me about Perry
and Comet but thats ok. I can't think of another motorcycle historian I respect more than Herb.

Dick

[pem]

There's a great old racer pic here........ http://thevintagent.blogspot.com/200...on-v-twin.html

Thanks for the link Cory. I have never seen this before. This is the first time I have seen
a story about Perry and his motorcycles that was fairly accurate.

In this story about Perry and his motorcycle they talk about the leaf spring fork. Truth be told is that the sprung fork with no dampning made for a wild ride. There are newspaper articles talking about banning the P.E.M./Jefferson racers as they were out of control at high speed. In 1913 the Waverkey factory racers had solid front forks. Bouncing down country roads was one thing but flying down a racetrack at close to 100mph was another.

Dick

[c.o.]

I really wish there was more early race footage. It would be something to see those fellas flying around a track! The early photos like Barry posted of his yardlong are really all we have (and an awesome pic it was at that!). I guess there's some pretty good descriptions in early articles as well. I'll have to do some more digging and see if I can come up with some more race results from north of the border......

[HarleyCreation]

I have the Articles of Incorporation from Lake Motor Co. and they started in 1919. I don't think it could be earlier but you never know...The ad is really the front cover of a Lake Motor Co. brochure with no date on it.

Dick

Dick,

Can you tell us the names of the guys on the Lake MoCo. incorp papers? Maybe we can identify them or recognize them somehow. You never know.

I take it Perry was not named, eh?

[HarleyCreation]

That's correct Bill. The line from the Waverley factory is that they changed the name to honor Perry but in another newspaper article from the Cambridge newspaper they said it was because of copyright infringement on the Waverley name. I believe the second story.
By October of 1912 Perry was gone from Jefferson and back in Milwaukee and Frank
Kitlitschko was now at Waverley making the new Jefferson models. Perry was in Jefferson
for just about a year. Almost all of the motorcycle encyclopedias I have seen have got
the facts about Perry and his motorcycles wrong. There was a lot of behind the scenes stuff going on we will never know about. And the Comet connection with Perry, Frank and
Waverley has always stumped me. I know Herb doesn't always agree with me about Perry
and Comet but thats ok. I can't think of another motorcycle historian I respect more than Herb.

Dick

Dick,

It's not that I don't agree, but am waiting to see proof that Perry was involved with Comet. We know Frank Kitlitschko and the spring fork/frame jumped from Comet to Waverley/P.E.M./Jefferson, as I recall it. The other Comet names that are pretty certain are the two Hildebrand brothers who came over from H-D. Perry could have been involved too. I'd like to think he was, but we need evidence.

Some people joked that P.E.M. meant "Poorest Ever Made" or "Push Every Mile" but Perry E. Mack was the man and an early prophet of the OHV engine.

[HarleyCreation]

I really wish there was more early race footage. It would be something to see those fellas flying around a track! The early photos like Barry posted of his yardlong are really all we have (and an awesome pic it was at that!). I guess there's some pretty good descriptions in early articles as well. I'll have to do some more digging and see if I can come up with some more race results from north of the border......

Cory,

I think there was a LOT of movie footage made of early races if that's what you mean. I know they filmed the early Dodge City 300-mile races and also some Milwaukee races. That was a big deal. But what happened to them is beyond me. Probably some of them are held in big film archives but not well known.

The closest I got to movies was thru Squibby, H-D test rider, hillclimber, and racer in the 1920s. He tore his basement apart looking for films that Bill Knuth took of hillclimbs, etc. but could not find them. "I know they are here somewhere," he said, but they wouldn't turn up. Otherwise I would have made copies. Too bad.

[pem]

Dick,

It's not that I don't agree, but am waiting to see proof that Perry was involved with Comet. We know Frank Kitlitschko and the spring fork/frame jumped from Comet to Waverley/P.E.M./Jefferson, as I recall it. The other Comet names that are pretty certain are the two Hildebrand brothers who came over from H-D. Perry could have been involved too. I'd like to think he was, but we need evidence.

Some people joked that P.E.M. meant "Poorest Ever Made" or "Push Every Mile" but Perry E. Mack was the man and an early prophet of the OHV engine.

The evidence I have is circumstancial. Perry's 1910 divorce papers, the 1912 Chicago Motorcycle Show issue of Motorcycle Illustrated with the 2 page Harley ad slaming an unknown motorcycle maker, his biography in 1912 and the fact Perry had to have some experience making motorcycle motors before he released his Waverley motor. I wish I had concrete proof too. Maybe we will still get lucky.

I also heard the locals in Jefferson refered to the P.E.M. as "Push Every Morning". I wish I could have talked to some old timers before they died. I went to the nursing home and talked
with people who knew someone in their family who had one but nobody was actually there.

Dick

[c.o.]

Cory,

I think there was a LOT of movie footage made of early races if that's what you mean. I know they filmed the early Dodge City 300-mile races and also some Milwaukee races. That was a big deal. But what happened to them is beyond me. Probably some of them are held in big film archives but not well known.

The closest I got to movies was thru Squibby, H-D test rider, hillclimber, and racer in the 1920s. He tore his basement apart looking for films that Bill Knuth took of hillclimbs, etc. but could not find them. "I know they are here somewhere," he said, but they wouldn't turn up. Otherwise I would have made copies. Too bad.

If nothing else Herb, you've given me hope! I would love to see more early race footage and the Dodge City stuff would be pretty impressive I'm sure! Can you imagine seeing the likes of Don John's literally riding their mounts into the ground?!! Not to mention seeing the Wrecking Crew showing their force! Man, it looks like it's time to do some scrounging for early race footage!

[pem]

Dick,

Can you tell us the names of the guys on the Lake MoCo. incorp papers? Maybe we can identify them or recognize them somehow. You never know.

I take it Perry was not named, eh?

Perry is not named. The names are Henry A. Schmitz, President, Geo J. Schmitz, secretary.
Other names on the paperwork are Eva Kapp, R.E. Corners, H.A. Schmitz, Jr. and Charles Champion. The papers said they were going to be Jobbing, Manufacturing and Selling Motors and Machinery of all kinds and descriptions.

Not too many clues but that's all I could find.

Dick

[pem]

Perry is not named. The names are Henry A. Schmitz, President, Geo J. Schmitz, secretary.
Other names on the paperwork are Eva Kapp, R.E. Corners, H.A. Schmitz, Jr. and Charles Champion. The papers said they were going to be Jobbing, Manufacturing and Selling Motors and Machinery of all kinds and descriptions.

Not too many clues but that's all I could find.

Dick

Herb, I just found some more info. Apparently the main office was in Milwaukee in the Merrill building but the manufacture of the Lake Motor took place in Appleton, Wi. at the Appleton Machine Co. in an old paper mill. Most of the above mentioned people are in/from Appleton. This is interesting! "What will be called the "Lake" Motor was manufactured in a small way in Milwaukee but without much success."

This info is from 1920 and it appears they haven't made any motors yet in Appleton.
In the article they claim "turn out at 50 gasoline engines a day" and "has enough orders to keep it rinning full capacity for the next year." But of course we know that never happened.

The article says "The patents, patterns and other essentials to manufacture were secured" but it doesn't say from whom. The article is just full of wild claims and they finnish the article by saying "Prospects for the future of the company have been exceptionally bright since it's inception and it seems that only the question of productive ability has to be considered in making it one of Appleton's leading enterprises."

I wonder how long it really lasted and how many motors were actually made?

Dick

[HarleyCreation]

Herb, I just found some more info. Apparently the main office was in Milwaukee in the Merrill building but the manufacture of the Lake Motor took place in Appleton, Wi. at the Appleton Machine Co. in an old paper mill. Most of the above mentioned people are in/from Appleton. This is interesting! "What will be called the "Lake" Motor was manufactured in a small way in Milwaukee but without much success."

This info is from 1920 and it appears they haven't made any motors yet in Appleton.
In the article they claim "turn out at 50 gasoline engines a day" and "has enough orders to keep it rinning full capacity for the next year." But of course we know that never happened.

The article says "The patents, patterns and other essentials to manufacture were secured" but it doesn't say from whom. The article is just full of wild claims and they finnish the article by saying "Prospects for the future of the company have been exceptionally bright since it's inception and it seems that only the question of productive ability has to be considered in making it one of Appleton's leading enterprises."

I wonder how long it really lasted and how many motors were actually made?

Dick

Dick,

That's really interesting information!

Those Lake names didn't ring a bell and then the Appleton connection popped up. Wonder if any info exists on Lake or those people in the Appleton Historical Society? Or in other local newspapers? There might have been a big splash at the time and from the sound of it (wild claims) they sought publicity.

Often, when they made the biggest promises and bragged of huge orders, etc. that meant the outfit was about to fold!

[c.o.]

A 1914 Pope Factory Tour. It sounds as though it was a meticulous environment..... (with a little bonus on a mail delivering Yale!)