popes O.H.V.

[jurassic]

bill mack

this is jeff habermans bike with perry macks son bill.

[jurassic]

pope

yo billy , heres the pope.its still in that ugly stage ,but wait till the rust takes over.them original non skids are sweet.

[jurassic]

jeff

thanks dick,did you get my email?

[pem]

Another beautiful replica. It would look good sitting in my driveway. One can dream
can't they!

You and Jeff have more skills in your little finger than I have all together.
Good job!

Dick

[jurassic]

little jeff

this is a bike i built as a copy of dudley perkins jefferson racer.he was a jeff dealer before he was a harley dealer,or was it at the same time?obviously mack powered,but it didn't have the big boss on the left case.so it was easy to get it looking like an mc engine.

[pem]

Here's what the Saginaw cyclecar motors look like. They used Perry's Waverley top end with the cylinder studs attaching at the heads.

[pem]

Here's a photo of Jeff Haberman's Jefferson racer replica using a Mack cyclecar motor that has been machined to look like a motorcycle motor. This is his first attempt and I think he did an outstanding job. By the way his grandfather was one of the original in vestors in the Waverley Mfg. Co. in Jefferson, Wi. in 1911.

[pem]

Definitely looks like one of Perry's Mack motor top ends. There was a difference between Perry's Waverley and Mack motors. The Waverley motors were used exclusevly on the P.E.M. or Jefferson production motorcycles and a couple prototypes and the Mack motors were proprietary motors that were sold for a variety of different applications. I know of only two of Mack's Waverley v-twin motors still in existence but I'm hopeful there are more. Same with single cylinder Waverley motors. The Waverley motors had long cylinder attachment studs that went from the cases to the heads and the Mack just had short studs sticking out of the cases that attached the cylinders at their bases like the Wizard motor. All of the current Mack motors I know of, and there are quite a few, are cyclecar type motors with large bosses sticking out one side or both sides of the engine cases with the crank shaft protruding out the sides of both cases. People now are machining those bosses off to make them look like motorcycle motors. Perry did make Mack motorcycle motors as I have seen at least one original period photo of a Mack v-twin motor in a motorcycle and I have copies of the Mack motorcycle motor blueprints.

There was a patent that Perry was issued in 1912 for an oil pump for motorcycles but comparing it to the Pope photos it doesn't look similar. But I could be wrong. And I never found any local law suits in Milwaukee between Mack or Pope but there is one between the Waverley Mfg. Co. and a local foundry that I haven't finnished researching. I have moved to the other side of Wisconsin and that has made my research more difficult.

Dick

[jurassic]

the wiz

so what do you make of this thing? looks like a jeff top ,but no cylinder studs.dick PM me your email .lonnie

[HarleyCreation]

Lonnie, What did you do? Clean out the basement of the old Pope factory? Nice stuff!

The late Joe Koller, who owned an original (restored) P.E.M., thought the "buttons" (broken valve retainers) packed the combustion chamber, raised compression, and boosted output. These were speedy motors. Ask Harley-Davidson!

Somewhere in my files there is a teens article about the Pope OHV line that says that a midwestern designer or engineer worked on the Pope OHV motor. But it does NOT give his name. Of course Perry was a midwestern guy. Gotta wonder...

OTOH, this was the age of "borrowing" from the other guy unless you had a rock solid patent backing you up. They all did it, and then they all lied to make themselves into bigger heroes than they actually were.

I'm just now reading a book about Colonel Pope. He was a very shrewd businessman and THE pioneer American bicycle manufacturer. He had an army of lawyers working on patent issues at all times. So he would have been very careful about stealing anything that could him into trouble. OTOH, he would have known what he could "borrow" (steal) and get away with using too.

You can make a case for Perry's involvement go either way...flip a coin...

Dick, didn't Perry have an early patent or two? Oil pump maybe? If so, it might pay to compare that patent to features on the Pope OHV motor. It's possible there was some kind of litigation between Pope and Mack. Just possible.

Wouldn't that be a good find?

[jww]

VLDave,
Thanks for posting the pictures of my Model K. Thought they might add to the interest in the Pope marque. I had no other choice than to "restore" the bike. I am very impressed with the design and engineering. Ahead of the pack for the times. Plan on taking it to the Barber Event. Hope to see you fellows there.

[vldave]

Pope OHV

Pope OHV - DL

[pem]

If you go to the U.S. Patent Office web site you can get the blueprints for the button's. Curriously they are assigned to Frank Kitlitschko and not Perry. The blueprint for what I thought was Perry's spring frame is actually assigned to Frank Kitlitschko also. But that would make sense because the Comet v-twin motorcycle from 1910 was supposed to use the spring frame and Frank was President of the Comet Motor Co. However I have found other articles that specificately say Perry designed it as well as Frank Kenzler so one has to wonder who really designed the spring frame. If my research has told me anything just because someone wrote it down doesn't necessarily make it true. I always thought that no
1910 twin-cylinder spring-frame Comet motorcycles were made but I have found an article from a local Wisconsin newspaper where they describe one as being stolen in Milwaukee. Unfortunately no known photos or drawings exist. And then you wonder what kind of v-twin
motor Comet used and who designed it.

Dick Werner

[jurassic]

jeff

[jurassic]

pope

thanks dick,i never considered that.seems very logical.i knew the buttons were to keep the valves from dropping,but often wondered if there was any other reason they may have been used.they used a cotter pin in the valve stem under the spring collar on the mack to keep it from dropping.must have been a common problem to have to put two large pieces of metal into your combustion chamber .and honestly i'd worry more about the little tiny bolt that holds the button in ,than the valve spring collar pin.i think pope definatly improved perry's design.