1901 Wiggert

[HarleyCreation]

Re: comet

Originally posted by jurassic
speaking of the comet. whats the story there?this is the only pic i have found.they started up in 1909?their connection to harley? any other pics?

In the Creation book there is a capsule history of the Milwaukee Comet in Note 12 on p. 212-13.

Very sketchy and we don't know much more, but some guys involved with the later Waverley Co. like Frank Kitlitsch and the Hildebrand brothers and maybe that Mack fellow were connected with the Comet. Notice your photo the Comet has the Waverley/P.E.M./Jefferson type spring fork!

The Hildebrand bros were VERY early Harley employees and that probably explains why the Comet looks so much like the H-D. We KNOW that a few dozen Comets were built, but we are still looking for a survivor, although an honest replica would be good enough. The Hildebrands are also mentioned in the Creation book. What they could have told us!

In fact, in the very first known reference of a H-D motorcycle in the historical record (Sept.1904) a Hildebrand is riding it!

[pem]

Here's a photo and article about our friend S. Lacy Crolius. It is
from the Sept. 1910 Wisconsin Motorist.

[pem]

Here's another Comet photo. I think this is the only known photo
of the right side of a Comet.

[pem]

I was wrong. Here's another rt. side photo.

[pem]

Here's an article about Mr. Crolius being accused of cheating.

[jurassic]

Originally posted by pem
I was wrong. Here's another rt. side photo.

wow this is an amazing photo.and with an early harley for contrast.notice how the lower ends on all three bikes appear to be the same size .it also looks like the comet may have run the exhaust thru the frame.it looks like you can see the clamp on motor mounts in both pics,but no header pipe .it also looks like the two comets in the second picture are different from one another.the cylinders on the comets look different than the harley though.,thanks for the pics and info.

[Jerry Wieland]

I am not trying to take over this thread but reference was made earlier about Harry Miller and his unknown hometown. Harry Miller was born in Menomonie, Wisconsin along with another great name from the Industrial era - Ole Evinrude. When I was a kid McClellans Garage was still referred to as Evinrude's Garage by all the old timers.

At one time or another each of these guys' names were associated with motorcycles. Supposedly a photo exists in the Dunn County Historical Society of one of these guys on a motorcycle of his own making - I cannot remember which. I have tried to get them to locate it but to no avail. John Dotseth has a blue print of a motorcycle drawn up by Harry Miller.

Jerry

[exeric]

I would be interested in anything related to Harry Miller and motorcycles. I didn't know he was involved with bikes. Harry Miller was one of the most interesting gear heads of all time.

[c.o.]

Jerry, don't think of it as taking over...............we all thrive on this stuff. Thanks for the info!!!

[pem]

Thanks Jerry for the info about Harry Miller. Now I have another reason to get on the bike and go riding. If I come up with anything I'll post the photo.

Getting back to Comet, my theory is that Perry Mack designed the 1904/05 HD motor, went to Comet between 1906 and 1909 and used his experience to design the Comet motor and then debuted his overhead valve Waverley motor in 1910. I just can't believe Mack could design an advanced motor like the overhead
valve Waverley that won it's first time out racing and not have any prior experience.

Unfortunetly there is so little information left from that time period which makes researching difficult. But I do know we don't know who's name was on the blueprints for the 1904/05 HD or the Comet. Unless somebody has them. The Motor Co. says they don't(at least in the archives). I was told by soembody at HD that the old blueprints might be in engineering but I have had no luck with that angle.

Mack was working in Milwaukee by at least 1899 which would give him plenty of time to design a motor by 1904. And we know he was with HD in 1905. The only time periods where I can't determine where Mack was working are from1897 to 1899, 1899 to 1904 and 1906 to 1909. From 1910 till his death in 1952 every year is documented. His son William says his dad worked the railroads from Nebraska to Chicago after he left school in 1897 but I have no documents to prove it. A short biography in 1912 says Mack worked in the automotive industry for a short time so that could be the 1899 to 1904 time period or the 1906 to 1909 time period. They also said he designed and raced bicycles. Then again it is hard to believe anything written around 1912 as it seems during that time period truth was based on who was doing the writing. Not the facts.

Anyway thats what I think. Now all we have to do is prove it.

[aka HAWG]

I just got a copy of steven wright's book the american motorcycle 1869-1914, and found a interesting paragraph relating to the comet. ( pic from book posted above ). the comment is that the bike appeared at state fairs that season to promote the bike, they fabricated a 3 feet wide by 50 feet in diameter wooded circle track that the public could test ride the bike, catalog claims 5,170 people had taken them up. and the above photo shows that track - what a great documented piece of history

aka HAWG

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by jurassic
wow this is an amazing photo.and with an early harley for contrast.notice how the lower ends on all three bikes appear to be the same size .it also looks like the comet may have run the exhaust thru the frame.it looks like you can see the clamp on motor mounts in both pics,but no header pipe .it also looks like the two comets in the second picture are different from one another.the cylinders on the comets look different than the harley though.,thanks for the pics and info.

The similarity isn't surprising when you consider that one of the Hildebrands was a lathe operator at Harley in 1907. He could probably turn engine parts in his sleep. So if we're right and he was involved with the Comet firm, a very Harley-like engine would be the natural result.

It's also noteworthy that Harley totally black-balled anyone who left their employ and started up a rival motorcycle company by NEVER mentioning their name in later early histories. Perry E. Mack and the Hildebrands were left out totally and Henry Melk barely made it with one 1942 mention that I happened to find.

We know that a couple/few dozen Comets were made, but it seems to have been a local product and therefore little known today.

[HarleyCreation]

Originally posted by Jerry Wieland
I am not trying to take over this thread but reference was made earlier about Harry Miller and his unknown hometown. Harry Miller was born in Menomonie, Wisconsin along with another great name from the Industrial era - Ole Evinrude. When I was a kid McClellans Garage was still referred to as Evinrude's Garage by all the old timers.

At one time or another each of these guys' names were associated with motorcycles. Supposedly a photo exists in the Dunn County Historical Society of one of these guys on a motorcycle of his own making - I cannot remember which. I have tried to get them to locate it but to no avail. John Dotseth has a blue print of a motorcycle drawn up by Harry Miller.

Jerry

Are you sure it's the same Evinrude in Menomonie? If so, that would be a new development. As far as I know, Evinrude was born in Norway and his family lived at Lake Ripley at Cambridge, Wis. near Madison. If there is a Menomonie connection, that would be a new and worthwhile thing to learn more about.

[HarleyCreation]

Nice theory, but we need proof. I heard the story years ago from charter club member John Giorno (who had done the research for Ted Hodgdon) that Perry was riding a motorcycle of his his own design on the day he hit the dog in Chicago. I think he got that out of the same 1912 article you mentioned.

But lo and behold, when we went back and dug out the news reports and photos from 1905, we found that Perry was actually riding a Harley-Davidson motorcycle!

Maybe Mack got into the game first as a rider and machinist, and very likely he was H-D's first or second employee. Did he have input on the early Harley motorcycle? Possible. But it's just as likely he learned from them and then went on to design his own motor, which appears first in the historical record around 1910.

Like you say, the key to Mack is what he was doing in the 1906-1909 period when he designed his own ohv motor, which, as you stated, was a quite advanced design: a big, powerful, magnificent early ohv motor.

What I want to know is: Who/what was Waverley? Any ideas on that?

Originally posted by pem

Getting back to Comet, my theory is that Perry Mack designed the 1904/05 HD motor, went to Comet between 1906 and 1909 and used his experience to design the Comet motor and then debuted his overhead valve Waverley motor in 1910. I just can't believe Mack could design an advanced motor like the overhead
valve Waverley that won it's first time out racing and not have any prior experience.

Unfortunetly there is so little information left from that time period which makes researching difficult. But I do know we don't know who's name was on the blueprints for the 1904/05 HD or the Comet. Unless somebody has them. The Motor Co. says they don't(at least in the archives). I was told by soembody at HD that the old blueprints might be in engineering but I have had no luck with that angle.

Mack was working in Milwaukee by at least 1899 which would give him plenty of time to design a motor by 1904. And we know he was with HD in 1905. The only time periods where I can't determine where Mack was working are from1897 to 1899, 1899 to 1904 and 1906 to 1909. From 1910 till his death in 1952 every year is documented. His son William says his dad worked the railroads from Nebraska to Chicago after he left school in 1897 but I have no documents to prove it. A short biography in 1912 says Mack worked in the automotive industry for a short time so that could be the 1899 to 1904 time period or the 1906 to 1909 time period. They also said he designed and raced bicycles. Then again it is hard to believe anything written around 1912 as it seems during that time period truth was based on who was doing the writing. Not the facts.

Anyway thats what I think. Now all we have to do is prove it.

[Earl]

Originally posted by Jerry Wieland
I am not trying to take over this thread but reference was made earlier about Harry Miller and his unknown hometown. Harry Miller was born in Menomonie, Wisconsin along with another great name from the Industrial era - Ole Evinrude. When I was a kid McClellans Garage was still referred to as Evinrude's Garage by all the old timers.

At one time or another each of these guys' names were associated with motorcycles. Supposedly a photo exists in the Dunn County Historical Society of one of these guys on a motorcycle of his own making - I cannot remember which. I have tried to get them to locate it but to no avail. John Dotseth has a blue print of a motorcycle drawn up by Harry Miller.

Jerry

I did a search on the Dunn County Historical Society web page. They have a number of online exhibits. Here is the link for some Harry Miller information. Very interesting reading !!!

http://discover-net.net/~dchs/history/exmiller.html