Another unknown Wisconsin Motorcycle?

[pem]

Thanks Duffy,I guess that answers that question. Apparently Edward was from a different family. I always forget about the U.S Census. Thanks again.

[duffeycycles]

1910 Ward 15,Milwaukee census..Parents,Gustav & Matilda Hildebrand,born Germany..Paul 26 b-Wis, Gustav 25 b-Iowa,Otto 24 b-Iowa...Emma 22 Wis,Walter 16 Wis....There is Edward at Fondue Lac WW1 registry b-1884,not shown in Milwaukee 1900-1910....confusing because another Paul b-1869 Germany buried in Milwaukee

[pem]

This is the famous #599 photo found by Herb in the early 1990's in the basement of the Milwaukee County Historical Society. If you want the story on this photo read Herb's book "At the Creation". H.D. didn't even know about this photo till Herb told them. Nor did they know about the other 1,000 glass plate negatives. I was lucky enough to make a photograph from the original glass plate negative before H.D. took them.

The 1905 H.D. motor, the 1908 Comet motor and the 1908 Advance motor are all similar but not the same. Who designed the motor they were all based on. Merkel? Mitchell? Evinrude? Mack? Leet? Kitlitschko? Harley? Fielbach? We may never know.

Edward Hildebrand was at H.D. in 1904. Paul and Otto Hildebrand were members of the Comet Motorcycle Club and were machinist. Were they brothers? They lived on 40th St. H.D. was on 37th St. Leet was on 37th St. Was the Advance made in Leet's garage? Comet was at 34th St. You know dam well they all knew each other.

Old documents and photos still turn up once in a while. Maybe we'll get lucky.

[brettxlch]

Your first picture sure looks a lot like H-D's First machine. This picture is from 1912 after some modifications had been done.

Much simpler times ill bet....When people didnt have all the rules and regs of todays society....young man looks pretty happy and proud in pic...

[pem]

Here's a tongue-in-cheek article from the Watertown Times. For automobiles but it applies to motorcycles in this time period. July 1911. Ya gotta remember pre-1910 there were no roads even remotely comparable to today's roads.

[pem]

I’m guessing there were few, if any, requirements for lighting (we do see old photos of bikes without any lights)...at least legally required lights anyway. FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) originated in the 1960’s, so if there were legal requirements they would have been from local or state regulations.

Customer demand for lights must have been the driving (err...riding) force behind lighted motorcycles?

Harry, you are exactly right. Somewhere I have regulations passed by different jurisdictions. There were no national requirements. Like you say local regulations pre 1910. One of the biggest forces driving regulations was farmers. They had a hell of a time with cattle and horses spooked by motorcycles and autos. Especially the motorcycles with cutouts or no mufflers at all. And I've read about accidents caused by no lights on the vehicles. There were quite a few accidents back in the day. Lots of people died. Not to mention how many people died from runaway horses and wagons. That was almost a common everyday occurrence. And boiler explosions. And train wrecks. It was pretty exciting around the turn of the 20th century. And just think about 20,000 horses shitting on the streets of New York or Chicago everyday. OMG!

[pem]

My question is why Wisconsin, I know indian is in mass, but i wonder if word of mouth , rich folk around in that part of the country. One would think down south ware you could ride all or most of the year...

Milwaukee was full of foundries and machine shops and all kinds of factories making everything from bicycles to boat motors. Pre 1910 was a boom time for new ideas. Airplanes, boats, trains, autos, motorcycles, etc., etc., etc. It had all the breweries which had to be outfitted with equipment. They were huge. Plus rail yards and slaughter houses, tanneries and everything else you can think of. Just like now back yard mechanics were building autos, motorcycles, you name it.
Look at all the home built airplanes you see today at Oshkosh. Amazing!

[pisten-bully]

What were (are) the requirements then for headlights back lights back then as compared to now, If i had say a 1916 harley now ,what is it required to have to be road legal?? Headlight , rear tail lights , just curious???

I’m guessing there were few, if any, requirements for lighting (we do see old photos of bikes without any lights)...at least legally required lights anyway. FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards) originated in the 1960’s, so if there were legal requirements they would have been from local or state regulations.

Customer demand for lights must have been the driving (err...riding) force behind lighted motorcycles?

[pem]

Hey Chris, while your here I have a question. Last night a old high school buddy stopped and we went through his old photos he brought along. We found a photo of my 1955 Ford lime green panel truck. Until last night I never had a photo of it. Anyway, it was brought back to Wisconsin from California in 1972 or 1973 by Pat Hart after he got out of the service. I bought it from Pat and he said it was painted by Steve McQueen. That's all I know. He didn't say he had owned it just painted it.

It had farm implement tires. Big fat round things with just groves running around the tires. No cross groves at all. We drove up to Elkhart Lake for the June Sprints to camp at Plymouth Rock camp ground. On the way it started raining and going up a steep road the rear tires just broke loose and spun. Not good. We got to Plymouth Rock campground and parked on the side of a hill horizontal with the hill. I turned off the ignition, and sat for about 5-10 seconds and the truck started sliding down this big hill sideways all the way to the bottom. Why we didn't roll I'll never know. Soon after I bought different tires.

My question is did you ever see this truck back in the day? Not sure what city it was painted in.
And how do you get the photos to show up full size and not thumbnails?

Thanks

[pem]

Don't know if they had a small shop or if they built it behind Leet's house in his garage. Don't know which foundries they used or machine shops.

There were 5 Advance motorcycles in the Wi. registrations from 1909 to 1912. So it was a production motorcycle. Oscar Graf's Advance wasn't in the registrations but I don't have a complete list. Plus a lot of guys didn't register their motorcycles.

Here's what we know.

Advance Motorcycle Owners;

Reg. #158, 8-1909, Wiliam Jerrang, 888 6th St., Milw.

Reg. #312, 9-1909, Walter Stuiple, 719 34th St., Milw. Ser #7, 3hp(just blocks from HD and Comet)

Reg. 883, 5-1910, Edward H. Leet, 695 37th St., Milw. Ser # 1007, Maker-Leet & Stoll, 3 1/2hp.

Reg. #896, 6-1910, Wm. Schultz, 855 33rd St., Milw. Maker-J. E. Stoll, 3 1/2hp.

Reg. #1797, -1911, J. Martin, 558 10th ave., Milw. Ser. #1007, 3 1/2hp.

I see Ser. #1007 is registered twice under different names. I didn't notice that before.

So how many were built? My guess is less than a dozen but there is really no way to know for now. It looked well sorted out and up to date. Quite nicely finished. Was it painted white?

Sadly, this is all I know about the Advance Motorcycle. Maybe somebody will see this and have more information.

[pem]

The rider is Oscar Graf from Milwaukee. He was a member of the Comet motorcycle Club and that is where the first two photos came from in a 1910 Wisconsin Motorist. So now we have 3 photos of an Advance motorcycle. They were built in Milwaukee starting in 1908 I believe. We know this from a Nov. 1908 Motorcycle Illustrated magazine article where they say "Although the Merkel plant has been consolidated with that of the Light , Milwaukee is still the home of four motorcycles. These are the Harley-Davidson, the Feilback, the Comet and the Advance".

It was built by E.h. Leet & J.E. Stoll who actually took out a patent on the Advance frame. Patent #944,795, application date Aug. 21, 1908, patent date Dec. 28, 1909. I showed Herb a copy of the photo and Herb being Herb he found this patent.

Leet was the mechanical man I think and Stoll was the money man. Leet was listed in the Machinist Monthly Journal, vol. 22. He lived at 695 37th St. just a few blocks from Harley-Davidson. Stoll I found in Viroqua, Wi. near the Mississippi River not far from where I lived in Sabin, Wi. He was a stock holder in Nov. 1909 at the State Bank of Viola not far from Viroqua or Sabin. What he was doing 175 miles from Milwaukee I just don't know.

[brettxlch]

The motorcycles in those photos above was an Advance. The original photo below is the first I have ever seen that was really detailed and just might be the only one in existence of an Advance motorcycle. When the old guy showed it to me I couldn't believe it. I had read about it in my research for years but nobody knew what it looked like or who built it and how many. We do now.

Seems it was like the snowmobile craze in the late 60s to mid 70s...

[pem]

The motorcycles in those photos above was an Advance. The original photo below is the first I have ever seen that was really detailed and just might be the only one in existence of an Advance motorcycle. When the old guy showed it to me I couldn't believe it. I had read about it in my research for years but nobody knew what it looked like or who built it and how many. We do now.

[brettxlch]

Minnesta also had some early bike builders...seems crazy but true.PEM,I really enjoy your posts & the hospital volunteer !!!

What were (are) the requirements then for headlights back lights back then as compared to now, If i had say a 1916 harley now ,what is it required to have to be road legal?? Headlight , rear tail lights , just curious???

[pem]

Your welcome. I just got home. Don't forget about Chicago either. There were motorcycles made there very early too. Can't think of them just now. My remembry isn'y what it used to be.

Here we go.