Matching vin number question

[byuill]

Good morning, I would like information about matching vin numbers.
I have a 1965 CL77 Honda scrambler vin # CL77 1022538 and engine # CL77E 1021695 , I believe this bike is factory original.
Would these numbers be a match to pass inspection for OK vin/serial numbers? Section V1 Guidelines page 13.
thank you Brad

[vph-d]

From what I've learned the frame and engine numbers on Hondas from that time never match...
vph-d

[kitabel]

Whether it's legal is up to your State DMV and the mod of the cop who stopped you.

[ihrescue]

H Brad -

I am going to copy and move your post to the Japanese forum and maybe someone will pick up on it and help with more detailed info regard to how judges might view your VIN as appropriate for the year. From what I have found just with cursory online research is that your VIN fits the production of a CL77 run. I will see if I can get a judge for Hondas to comment.

Here is from a BLOG by MRHONDA and goes into some detail about VINs. This kind of info can help you be able to document facts about your bike for the judges.

"The CL77s: The 305 Scrambler models, CL77-1000001 to 1014495 were built as '65 models and were equipped with CL72-style steel forks and the same "small" 7" SLS Bikes after CL77-1014495 had 8" DLS brakes, similar to the CB77, but the front wheel is mostly derived from CB450 parts. The chrome fender bikes with the "oval" taillight started production from CL77-1043098 ('67 models). The "CB450" headlight, with bulb screw adjuster, began with CL77-1042143. From CL77-1033482, the rear shocks used an improved rear shock cover with a larger collar design. Longer exhaust heat shields were used from CL77-1046212 onwards.
The rubber-mounted seat and cushioned front footpegs were introduced from number CL77-1033482, along with an appropriate frame change to accommodate the redesigned forward seat mount. Front fenders and stays were changed, with the introduction of the Type 2 (aluminum) forks at CL77-1014496. A modified crankshaft with larger splines was begun at CL77E-1043132.”

MrHonda’s Blog related to the above is http://www.mrhonda.guru/2020/12/

The comments below were from the Honda Twins Net forum after an owner asked about approximate timeframe for CL77-1044772 which they identified as probably a 1968 since the number was so high for the 1965-1968 production of the model. He was also asking about a paint color and chrome in stead of silver painted fenders. One member was able to say that a certain paint started at VIN number XXXX and chrome fenders started at XXXX so that and of detail is available. As I understand having a parts manual is very helpful with information.

Here was one comment that was helpful

"Hello, the VIN on a CL77 is a production sequence number. It does not have any "codes" to ID paint colors, production date, or model year. There are many changes made during the production of the CL 77 and the frame or engine numbers are used to ID which part number is used on your bike. Many parts had changes during the production.”

And another comment

"The CL77 was made between '65 and '68, but all VINs were of the same group - CL77-10xxxxx. The engine number isn't relevant in most states, they generally go by frame number.”

From Honda Twins Net https://www.hondatwins.net/threads/c...cation.123808/

It would look to me like your VIN is in the middle of the production run so may 1966-1967 time frame. I would say to keep drilling down on information from the parts manual and the factory maintenance manual and be able to confirm and document in your records the ability to show judges the appropriateness of your VIN with your bike compared to production years.

I am only asserting this from comments I have been able to find elsewhere on the internet and am not a Honda knowledge expert nor do I have qualifications of a judge.

How does this help?

Mike Love

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[byuill]

Thank you Mike
I still need to understand a judge’s criteria for correct vin/ serial numbers .

[Keith Kizer]

Hi Brad,

Great reply from Mike Love. He asked me to do a little more digging and I've come up with two of the best small cc Honda restoration experts in the country, both happen to live in Florida. Bob Brander will get back with me once he gets over to his shop to get his books. But, Bob Anderson sent the following reply.

Hi Keith,

The Honda CL77 was produced from 1965 to 1967. In 1962 it was produced as a CL72 with a 250cc engine. The CL72 was a 250 while the CL77 was a 305cc. ANYHOW, the very early CL77s were nothing more than a CL72 with a CL77 engine installed. Those early CL77s were plagued with brakes designed for a 250cc bike and didn't stop very well. So sometime in 1965, those poor working single leading brakes were upgraded to double leading brakes. So the very early CL77s all had small single leading brakes. Those early 65 CL77s all stood out like a sore thumb with their single leading brakes. The later 65 CL77s all had the upgraded brakes.

Beginning in 1965 Honda did not produce bikes with serial numbers that could be equated with a particular year. They would start a production run and count up on the serial numbers throughout that production run. The CL77 only had one production run, from early 1965 until late 1967. So it is not easy to determine a 65-66 or 67 CL77 except by about kinda sorta what the serial number was.

The CL77 engine numbers are approximately 1000001 to 1067654. The frame numbers were 1000001 to 1067524.

If a club member asked me to judge his bike, I would accept it as a 1965 and that it is a numbers matching machine. When Honda produced a machine, one might assume that the frame and engine numbers should match and in a perfect world they should, however, when the quality control organization does its job the numbers get out of alignment very quickly. It's not unusual for Honda frame and engine numbers to be several hundred numbers apart.

In 1968 Honda began coding serial numbers according to the year of production. The bikes produced from 1965 to 1967 are the only ones that Honda did not codify by year.

I hope this information works for the CL77 owner. He is welcome to contact me via E-Mail and/or telly anytime. I will be happy go judge his bike anytime.

Sincerely,

Bob Anderson
AMCA 4460

Brad, shoot me an email at Kizer@AntiqueMotorcycle.org and I'll give you Bob's contact information.

[jlh3rd]

this is from the official Honda motorcycle identification guide.
And just to point out. Honda did not start "year" model designations until basically 1974. As you see, the CL 77 scrambler you have was released in 07/01/65 and that "Model" was produced through 1968.....So that same model could be titled as a'65', '66, '67, '68.......
also, you can see that your numbers fall into the range......they do not and most were not close to each other.....

there is no official documentation that specifically states what number sequences were for what specific year of release....
just opinions....

[jlh3rd]

and this..