1925 super x timing marks, or lack there of.

[phih29290]

I am working on getting this bike in running condition and lost spark shortly after startup. When removing the cam cover I’m fairly certain the cam came out far enough to move position. The crank gear and idlers look to be reproduction of some sort and the crank gear has no timing mark. If anyone has a gear and could provide a picture with the timing mark and crank key slot orientation I would feel better about putting this back together and not relying on me degreeing the cam gear to where I think I might go…. Thanks in advance! Phil

[gharper]

Phil,

Attached are a couple pictures that may help. The first is a shot of a reproduction pinion gear mated to an original SX cam. These pinion gears were made with no timing marks, perhaps you have one. I transferred the appropriate marks from an original gear onto mine. Note the cam gear has 1 mark, on a tooth and the pinion gear has 2 marks on adjacent teeth, Obviously the single cam gear mark fits between the 2 pinion gear marks. For a reference on the pinion gear, start at the gear tooth that sits directly above the key slot, that is tooth # 1. From there start counting CW to tooth # 8 and #9. Mark these by grinding and painting a bright color. The picture should help explain this.

X cam and pinion gear timing marks.jpg

The idler gears may very well be originals. SX idlers were solid gears. None of the Excelsior idler gears had timing marks on them, so placement doesn't matter. The magneto gear should have a mark that lines up with a factory punch mark on either the gasket surface of the timing cover ledge or inside the crankcase. In theory........ lining the cam, pinion and mag gears to these marks will get the timing correct. Be sure to index the mag gear onto the factory Woodruf key slot on the magneto shaft. If it is anything else, it will be off! Indian never used this factory slot. They aligned everything in some special way and drilled a 1/8" pin hole in the hub of the gear and the edge of the mag shaft, then inserted a 1/8" pin. So if you have a mag with a second, half round slot, don't use it! Again, this picture should help:

24 X cam and magneto gear timing marks.jpg


These pictures are for Big X engines, but the SX is the same, other than the smaller idler gears. I believe the pinion and mag gears carry the same part #'s from Big X (pre 25) to SX, (post 25).


Excelsior sent out a service bulletin in the teens on how to set the timing gears when assembling. That system never changed, all the way through 1931. The only thing I've seen is sometimes the timing mark stamped in the case for the mag is in a different spot. I've seen them at 1:00 and 5:00.The stamped factory mark is a straight mark, like a dash, probably set with a sharp chisel. Here is the factory service bulletin:


X factory timing instructions.jpg



The only way to be 100 % sure the timing is correct is to check the magneto points opening on BOTH cylinders. This is a laborious process, especially when the engine is in the frame and it has blind cylinders. Here is a poor copy of something I wrote up years ago about how to do that. I hope this helps!


Timing instructions.jpg


One note about Bosch wire placement. My statement in the text above is true, EXCEPT for the Bosch DVAR Mag-Dyno. This was used on SX from 29-31. These mags are opposite all other Bosch mags, in that the wire exiting the front of the mag goes to the front cylinder, the rear wire goes to the rear cylinder, same as a Splitdorf mag.


I hope this helps!

[exeric]

I guarantee, Ignaz would have hired you on the spot, Gene.

[phih29290]

That is exactly what I needed, many thanks. Just to be sure, I am looking at the back side of your pinion gear in this pic correct, I feel like I see a shoulder at table end of that gear and the keyway does not continue through the shoulder? I promise I’m not aware that I’m ignorant if I’m wrong about this…

[gharper]

Phil, No, you're looking at the front of the pinion gear. I see what you're looking at, that's a couple of crankpin nuts I set under the gear to get it to lineup with the cam gear. Sorry for that confusion.

Eric, That would have been something to work for Schwinn! But, I suppose at the time it was just a job for most of the people working there. We tend to romanticize a lot about the times and what it must have been like to work there. It was probably a noisy, smelly, dirty place to work. But hey, according to the 1916 factory tour book, it was a fully air conditioned and heated factory......

[exeric]

I also read that Mr. Schwinn was something of a tyrant and walked the factory floor every day. Lord have mercy on any worker caught goofing off or shooting the breeze on one of Ignaz' walk-throughs. . . . Of course, that wouldn't have been you or me, Gene.

[gharper]

Of course not Eric, we would have a system of notifications throughout the factory and get a quick heads up that the man is coming. That's when you work even harder. A good friend of mine at the fire department was the master of that. He would do the minimum, unless the chief was around, then he was Johnny on the spot, cleaning, working on something, or making fresh coffee. As soon as the chief would leave, he would say, "No use doing anything extra unless there is someone important around to see you doing it!"

In reality, when I look at the factory tour book, they show a photo of the manager of each department on the floor. Most of those guys were Polish, or German and looked like Ivan the Terrible. I'm sure they kept everybody in line!

[exeric]

I think the work ethic was also very different, and valued by many of the skilled workers. No safety nets and personal responsibility was assumed. However, I'll bet there was the same percentage of apple polishers, and boot lickers just like today