Frame numbers For Excelsior Super X 1930-1931

[vikingterritory]

Hello
I have a Super X with frame number 2405 and is a bit uncertain about my super x manufacture year and would be pleased if anybody could tell me where I can find a reliable source to determine which year the bike was built. The engine was exchanged 1952 with a new engine and has no number and was probably manufactured late 1930 or in the beginnigs of 1931.

Greetings from the viking territory.

[exeric]

The Ballack list is commonly used in lieu of any verifiable engine/year data from the Excelsior factory. Charlie Carter and Cliff Pease compiled a list back in the 1970s that used actual engine #'s from Excelsior and Henderson motorcycles. Their list more or less substantiates the Ballack list. As a side note; Ballack bought the motorcycle remains of the Excelsior factory in 1931 and probably had the factory records to make his list.

The frame #'s are pretty meaningless and whatever they meant, is lost to time. The Schwinn company/family records and documents from the days of motorcycle manufacturing are now in the posession of the AMA and very few people have had the opportunity to see them. I have to believe that if there was anything earthshaking in those records; it would have come out.

[LouieMCman]

How about some pictures Viking!

[Perry Ruiter]

Hello
I have a Super X with frame number 2405 and is a bit uncertain about my super x manufacture year and would be pleased if anybody could tell me where I can find a reliable source to determine which year the bike was built. The engine was exchanged 1952 with a new engine and has no number and was probably manufactured late 1930 or in the beginnigs of 1931.

Everything I've seen bases the year off the engine number. I'm not sure what the frame number was for or what it means. My 31 Super (engine serial 75xx) has frame number 2167. As Louie said lets see some pictures. If the engine has the later cylinders and new style oiling it's a 31 New style cylinders and old style pinion oiling and it's a 30 ... Perry

[chicagohen]

Eric, years ago when Mort Wood arranged the transfer of the archives from Schwinn to the AMA, I was able to see them at Westerville. There were no production records, engine numbers, frame numbers etc. I was also surprised by the lack of a full set of brochures and parts books, there were a number of years missing. The most spectacular items were the original component drawings from Detroit obviously done by William. Its ashame the AMA keeps these locked away. I agree with you and Perry that frame numbers have no correlation to year of manufacture. The Deluxe Hens also have four digit numbers that seem random.

I have found the motorcycle trade magazines helpful to id serial numbers. There are "for sale" ads that list serial numbers and also the stolen motorcyle section is useful for this as well. Its helped give me a range of numbers for the Detroits that seems to fit with Ballock's numbers.

[exeric]

Steve, it must have been pretty cool to dig into that stuff. Do you have any theories on what could have happened to all of the documentation from the the Excelsior factory? Do you think it went to Ballack, or do you think it just went in the garbage like H-D and Indian's priceless history?

[bobbyt]

The Ballack list is commonly used in lieu of any verifiable engine/year data from the Excelsior factory. Charlie Carter and Cliff Pease compiled a list back in the 1970s that used actual engine #'s from Excelsior and Henderson motorcycles. Their list more or less substantiates the Ballack list. As a side note; Ballack bought the motorcycle remains of the Excelsior factory in 1931 and probably had the factory records to make his list.

The frame #'s are pretty meaningless and whatever they meant, is lost to time. The Schwinn company/family records and documents from the days of motorcycle manufacturing are now in the posession of the AMA and very few people have had the opportunity to see them. I have to believe that if there was anything earthshaking in those records; it would have come out.

I've been collecting Ex and Henderson serial numbers for several years and the
Ballack lists do seem good, with the exception of the singles.

Bob Turek
# 769

[chicagohen]

Eric, the Ballock list of Hen #s is interesting as there is no breakdown for '12 to '14. I've never determined when Ballock became a Hen dealer but I'm guessing it must have been around the time of the Schwinn buyout. I think he sold Xs prior to that time. I have a pretty good collection of factory paper but not much from his shop. I would think as close as he was to the factory, he probably had pretty much of everything they released. Steve Shackman told me that when m/c production ceased, what was left was divided into three piles. Two guys in Chicago each got a third and the last third was in effect broken up, most likely to dealers who hung on supplying parts like Bill Sheetinger in Bridgeport, CT. Steve and Bill's initial pile came from Chicago and not Ballock in St Louis like many assume. The other third ended up with Marsh at Chicago Cycle Sales/Triangle. This is the stuff that the legendary Jim Mitteff took to Detroit. The fact that there doesn't seem to be much in the way of factory records around makes me think it was dumped.

[vikingterritory]

Vy1.jpgVy2.jpgDSC_0120.jpgDSC_0104.jpg

Hello Gents and many thanks for your replies to my question. Fortunately, I yesterday found a motor number on the bottom of one of the engine blocks when I dismounted the engine, number 7147. It gave me access to the original documents from the National Archives here in Sweden, which keeps all the old registration forms of all registered vehicles.
According to the registration document, it is a -31 but partially restored with an earlier (pre-29) unmarked replacement engine block, unfortunately the side that the engine number was stamped on. As you can see on attached files is the bike in quite good condition and hopefully will be back on wheels next summer.
Though, I have another question about the dark red color. Ithave been told that this is what it once looked like (the color) Just wanted to check if you could confirm or if there is anyone who have a reliable paint code or paint number to share?

Many greetings from vikingterritory

[exeric]

Thanks for the pictures. You have a beautiful Super X that looks quite complete. The color sure looks correct to the maroon that Hen/Ex offered at the end. As for paint, you may be ahead to find an experience paint mixer that can match the paint on your motorcycle.

[vikingterritory]

Thanks Eric for your support and advise. I really agree, it is just not one of the most beautiful iron pieces the the Great US Motor Culture ever produced. Its exquisite. The story behind this machine started in 1959 when me and my father visited a friend of him. Both with a keen and long lasting intrest of motorcycles. And there it stood in the barn under a canvas, a bit dusty but still in working order. I still remeber the sound and feelings when the to older men fired it up and the 6-year-old started to dream. Fifty years passed before that dream came true, but now itīs mine. At last (the gods must have seen some of my hottest desires and at last decided to fullfill one of them). I have never wanted a Harley (no offence I hope) maybe an Indian Chief from the mid-thirtiees (definitly the next project if I find a suitable object). It have always been that old X with itīs side-cart. As You probably understand has the thoughts about that bike made a frozen Viking heart to melt time to time during the last half century. Actually, it would be nice to be burried together. You know as they did in the old days, the side cart filled with bred, ham, a virgin and some beer. Pity though on such good iron.

Greetings from vikingterritory

[chicagohen]

It would be important to document that maroon and have it formulated to the new paints. I do not know of a new code for the X and Hen maroon that exactly matches the original.

[vikingterritory]

I will try to do that. Attach a picture of a KJ with a simular colour that i did like and which seems simular. Is it anybody who know the owner?