Buda Engine

[talbot-2]

Does anyone know what a one cylinder "Buda" engine was used for? A motorcycle or other???

[Jerry Wieland]

Never saw one in a motorcycle but they were very common in farm and industrial applications. I think they may be still made.

Jerry

[23JDCA 808]

Brief history of company, but no mention of their single:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buda_Engine_Co.

[LouieMCman]

"Buda manufactured engines for industrial, truck, and marine applications" & "Buda Engine Company was acquired by Allis Chalmers in 1953".....from this web page...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buda_Engine_Co.

[HillbillyJim]

Is this the type of Buda Single you are talking about?

http://nfrailroad.com/forumpics/Speeder1.jpg

http://nfrailroad.com/forumpics/Speeder2.jpg

When I got this engine many years ago, I was told that it came from a railroad speeder, the small gas engine powered hand cars that were used by section gangs on the railroads. Buda was a mfg of railroad track maintenance supplies back in the steam era. I have searched for a picture of a single cylinder Buda speeder to verify this, but I haven't found one yet. I have seen Buda twin cylinder speeders, but they use a completely different opposed twin engine.

So what does this have to do with an antique motorcycle forum? Well, I believe (and have been told) that this engine was built by Aurora / Thor. Both Aurora and Buda were based around the Chicago area shortly after the turn of the century. The engine is substantially similar to early Aurora / Indian / Thor engines that I have seen pictures of, with the exception of the engine mounts. Notice that the distinctive cam cover & ignition mechanism is the same, as is the cylinder and head.

Do any of you have an engine like this? The intake manifold on mine appears to be homemade and it has a suction plate carb. I would like to see pictures of an original. I don't know if it would have used the same intake manifold and carb as the motorcycle versions, since the cycle motors usually had the cylinder tilted the other direction to line up with the seat post, ala 1904 Indian. If the angle of tilt was the same, the manifold could have been identical, but it appears to my untrained eye that the cycle cylinders were usually more upright.

Any information or pictures will be greatly appreciated!

[LouieMCman]

Found this pic at this site....

http://www.oldmarineengine.com/discus/messages/3440/9778.html

[LouieMCman]

Lots of info here....

http://www.narcoa.org/newsite/links.htm

[HillbillyJim]

Thanks Louie - I've looked at the NARCOA site & links before, but I haven't found an existing single cylinder Buda car yet. The picture might be one, but it is missing the engine. I have a reprint of the 1907 Buda Railway Supply Catalog (see http://www.amazon.com/Track-Supplies...935327089#noop) but it doesn't show any gasoline engine powered handcars. I would suspect that the engine probably dates prior to the teens, since by 1913 the Thor Motorcycles had an updated engine - this can be seen on the 1913 Thor advertisement available in the library. It seems to me that the motorcycle versions had changed even before that, although I can't produce any documention to that fact off the top of my head. I don't know if an obsolete style of stationary/other use engine would have been produced after the motorcycle engines were updated. Also, I've never found any documention on these other style of engines. My engine does have a brass Buda Foundry & Mfg Co tag w/ serial # riveted to it. I acquired the engine about 25 years ago, but never have done anything with it other than clean it up a little. I'll keep searching for more information...

- Jim

[rwm]

check here

http://rrstuff.net/mudge.htm

look at contents mudge cars had singles and there from chicago

[HillbillyJim]

Thanks for the great link RWM, I'm ordering some one of the Mudge Book #7 from 1917 and the Stover motor car flyer from 1907. The Buda stuff was all newer (1941) so I'm skipping it for now. It will be interesting to see what the Mudge single looks like.

- Jim

[LouieMCman]

The mounts on your motor could have easily mounted on the rail car in the picture I posted and the lever maybe some sort or clutch? There has to be pictures out there some where!

[HillbillyJim]

I have found a picture, thanks (in a roundabout way) to RWM! While searching for a picture of the Mudge, I ran across a sale bill for railroad memorabilia that included a Mudge and... a Buda #10 Motor Velocipede! The handcars/motorcars are four wheel devices, but Buda and others used to make velocipedes that were three wheel devices. The majority of the machine rode on two wheels on a single rail and used a third guide wheel on an arm that rode on the opposite rail. Apparently, the Buda engine I have was used on an early version of the motorized Velocipede, not the four wheel handcar. The picture shows an engine that is from all appearances identical to mine, mounted on the velocipede - now all those crankcase mounts make sense. Unfortunately, it is also missing a carb and intake. Here is the link to the salebill:

http://static.auctionservices.com/documents/1943/4-18-09_Van_Winkle.pdf

Go to the third page and look at the bottom photo on the left side. This is the Buda Motor Velocipede showing the drive side of the engine. The guide wheel and arm are missing from the car. The description is on the same page, right side under Maintenance Vehicles, item no. 118.

Further research, using the proper terminology, revealed a few items that will help date the velocipede motor. A mention of a new Buda Motor Velocipede is listed for the August 13, 1909 edition of Railroad Age Gazette, so they must have been in development or production by that time. My 1907 Buda Catalog does not list a motor velocipede, just the normal human powered variety. Sheffield, which by one account built the first gasoline motor powered velocipede in 1898, apparently filed a patent infringement lawsuit against Buda that was decided on April 11, 1911. The filing date is not listed in the Congressional Serial Set, but patents listed in the opinion are dated as late as 1909, so I would suspect that this was filed in '09 or 10. All this leads me to think that they were in production in 1909, and could have been built or at least in development in 1908.

If I have interpreted Gregory Walter's Thor website properly, the original version of the single cylinder engine would have been used (in some form) from 1903 up to 1912 when a completely new single was developed. This would be consistent with a 1909 Buda start date for the motor velocipede.

In a 1921 Maintenance of Way Cyclopedia, there are different versions of the Buda Motor Velocipede listed. The 201 is listed with a 2 1/4 HP single cylinder engine, a 210 is listed that uses four wheels (two guide wheels instead of one) and a 12C that has more HP and four wheels. A small picture of a 12C is shown, but it would appear to be a different engine. I don't know if the 201/210 use the same Thor engine as the earlier model 10. Take a look at: http://books.google.com/books?id=lLApAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA658/

So here are the further questions: If the original version of the single was obsolete for motorcycle use by 1912, did Aurora/Thor continue to make that version for Buda after that time? IF they did, Aurora/Thor continue to build engines for Buda after motorcycle production ceased around 1920? Or did Buda a) use a different engine or b) purchase rights to that engine from Thor?

The search continues....

- Jim

[HillbillyJim]

I have found a couple of period advertisements from Buda, one with a picture although it is too fuzzy to see much detail. First is from the July 1910 issue of "The Railroad Telegrapher". It has a picture, also lists some details of the engine and drivetrain. Sorry for the long link, but due to the way Google digitizes the documents, I haven't found a shorter way to get to it directly:

http://books.google.com/books?id=lHM...ed=0CAcQ6AEwAA

Next up is an advertisement from the April 1909 issue of "The Frisco Man". This touts "Section cars, inspection cars, three and four wheel velocipedes for one to three persons. All motor driven." No picture, but shows that they were available at that time. The advertisement is on the bottom right corner of the first scanned page, which is actually page 4 of the magazine:

http://thelibrary.org/lochist/frisco/magazines/fm_1909_04/fm_1909_04_06.pdf

Also, I tried to email Gregory Walters at the email address listed in his Thor website, but it bounces back due to an invalid account. I emailed the webmaster listed on the site, but they emailed back that they have lost contact with him also. I was hoping that he might have info on these engines, since he seems to have a lot of Thor information and literature. Does anyone know how I might contact him?

Still haven't heard anything from Talbot... do you have one of these engines, or know someone who does? I would like to see pictures!

Thank you,
- Jim

[LouieMCman]

I'm glad you found the pictures, it must be exciting to finally be able to prove what your motor fits in. Last I heard Greg was working in New Zealand.

[talbot-2]

I started this thread back in mid 2009 to find out something about the Buda engine that I purchased in the late 1960's. I purchased it because the Buda cam cover, points box, and crank case are almost identical to those on my 1908 Indian, except the odd support brackets on the Buda crankcase. The Buda cam cover and points box are also very similar to the cam cover and points box on a 1910 Thor engine that I have, as well. My Buda engine appears to be almost identical to the one pictured in the post by "HillbillyJim". The following photos are of my Buda engine. Many thanks for all of the great replies.