judging frustration

[ronald]

Phil,
I guess I may have leaned to far toward the "competition" side for some, but perhaps I have been misinterpreted also. With the "as left the factory" or "Senior" designation, if you like, I was trying to indicate a standard for all bikes entered for judging would be judged against. A standard that participants and yes, judges, could actually see and compare the bikes to rather than a nonstandard of what someones idea of "correct" might be. The competition aspect comes from the natural human desire to have yours be nicer or if you will more correct than any one else's, that your bike, car, airplane, firearm or what ever is the "best", hence the limiting of the Winners Circle Award to the very best of the best for each season of judging. the very name of the award indicates that fact and makes it meaningful and something worth striving for. Check around, healthy competition improves the breed. Humans are competitive in nature, can't change that unfortunately. Don't believe me? Just go to any show or exhibition where awards are earned or handed out and you will find stunningly fine examples of what ever is being shown and judged. Because of that human nature, if there is no chance of recognition for excellence you will find that participants are few and items shown are generally bland. I put forth the idea of the "as ridden" or "junior" group as a platform for beginners to participate and have their machines judged and find out what they need to do to improve their machines. . No seasonal award would be offered. I guess this group already exists. Perhaps a class to just exhibit and compete for a general "peoples choice" award could be used to increase overall participation. This group would not be competing against a correctness standard or judged by any one other than the general public at each event and no seasons best award would be offered.
Because of the great diversity of machines that show up at the meets to compete for recognition, the "standard of excellence" for every make that shows up especially the more obscure is difficult to pin down. Not to ignore all of the many very finely preserved or restored foreign machines, my comments have been directed toward the more "standard" makes that a lot of us think of first when we hear the words "vintage motorcycle".
Sorry if I've gored anyone's ox along the way. Perhaps I've misunderstood what was trying to be achieved.

[T. Cotten]

.... Perhaps a class to just exhibit and compete for a general "peoples choice" award could be used to increase overall participation. .....

What the hell, why not celebrity judges.

Bring in the Teutels.

.....Cotten

[TimR]

Wow! 13 pages and people are still thinking that we need a digital database to record these fine machines that are and have been judged. The last time I was on the "Judging Field" the information from the "Judging Forms" was entered in to a laptop containing software that recorded the info off the forms. Soooo, if someone was interested in a 1962 BMW, that data base could be accessed to reveal all the 1962 BMW's that have been judged. The interested party could be given the information to contact the owners of the 1962 BMWs that have been judged and take the initiative to contact the owners and get the information first hand. Other ideas would most likely flow from these encounters. Carl or Don could this be an answer and become a reality?

[rousseau]

Can anyone bring a bike to a national meet and have it judged, our do you have to be a AMCA member???

[Sargehere]

You have to be a member. Like you have to be a member to post to this forum.

[redfred84]

I have been a huge & constant advocate for on-line support at the Judging Field. It all started when an entrant (and Judge) backed up his machine with all the factory literature & data to prove his bike correct. He brought his own laptop, and proved some controversial items that got mistakingly dinged on the field.
I have also been a strong advocate for pre-registration of Judged Machines for the meets, so as to give the hosting Chapter & judges enough time to prepare, and investigate the machines they will be reviewing. Of course, there will always be last minute entries though.
I was always received with much resistance on this however. Back in the Kevin Valentine days, perhaps because he pretty much single-handedly did all the computer reg, and prep. This is a lot of work. There is still the logistics of various laptops, who enters the info, and how. But I feel that this is narrowing down, and hopefully we can see this as a reality in the near future.
There was also much talk of recording the Winners Circle bikes. In fact, I believe Ed Youngblood made a book for the Foundation based on these machines. I know he expressed a desire to catalogue all the WC machines for future reference, but again, who does this, and how does it happen consistantly at all the various meets. Just some of the burdens I've witnessed presented to me upon my quandries.
Maybe someday, and hopefully soon.
RF.

[rwm]

Can anyone bring a bike to a national meet and have it judged, our do you have to be a AMCA member???

you can join at the swap meet the day of judging.

[Carl Olsen]

TimR,
We have that information available and can provide it with the owners consent, great idea. I am really appreciative of all the input from people on this thread and do not claim to have all of the answers, but we just might have found one here. Keep up the positive work and together we can improve the judging and make everything smoother.
Thanks Everyone,
Carl

[D.A.Bagin]

I have a 99+ pt. original 68 FLH. I have posted numerous pictures of it on photobucket. If we had a guideline of what to take pictures of and then post a library of links here somewhere on this website, accessable to members only, of the various make and model bikes that have been documented on photobucket, I think we could accomplish what people are looking for at little or no cost to the "Club". The member could then post his own pictures on photobucket or have a computer literate friend do it. It ain't no big deal. We are making it more complicated and costly than it needs to be.

[exeric]

I think the responsibility for documenting a Winner's Circle" bike should be with the owner. Like D.A. Bagin said, keep it simple, but come up with a guideline, or format (i.e. uncluttered background, good lighting, requisite views, etc.). Also, to get owner's to go to the trouble; perhaps there could be a special recognition added to the Winner's Circle award.

I believe as time goes on and the process get's more attention, you would see the documentation get better, and better.

[D.A.Bagin]

All you would have to do is add "Documented" to the award. Game over. Probably add $2.00 to the award, if that, and get priceless informaton. But then you get into a whole situation with the "Club" not wanting you to advertise your bike, if ever for sale, having AMCA recognition to add "Value" to the bike. So, where do you go from here???? Can't have one without the other can you???? Be careful what you wish for and sign for.

[T. Cotten]

All you would have to do is add "Documented" to the award. Game over. Probably add $2.00 to the award, if that, and get priceless informaton. But then you get into a whole situation with the "Club" not wanting you to advertise your bike, if ever for sale, having AMCA recognition to add "Value" to the bike. So, where do you go from here???? Can't have one without the other can you???? Be careful what you wish for and sign for.

Good point, D.A.Bagin!

Is an AMCA award "legitimate"?

Or purely honorary?

If a little old lady from Tiskilwa rear ends you, and you must prove the value of the damage,
must an AMCA documentation be forfeit?
Or might it be your best insurance?

Any and all Members' Historical machines should be rostered.

....Cotten

[rwm]

Is an AMCA award "legitimate"?


Or might it be your best insurance?

Any and all Members' Historical machines should be rostered.

....Cotten

what if the amca document says " you have the wrong brake light."

[T. Cotten]

But Rob!

Your machine's profile will clearly show that it indeed had a tail light.
The "wrong" tail light upon a vintage machine might often be better!

If States begin requiring more than just a "tail light', then the AMCA should begin to vigilantly focus its energies upon our rights to ride our machines.

If the Judging Program cannot be legitimate, it is frivolous.

....Cotten

[TimR]

I have been a huge & constant advocate for on-line support at the Judging Field. It all started when an entrant (and Judge) backed up his machine with all the factory literature & data to prove his bike correct. He brought his own laptop, and proved some controversial items that got mistakingly dinged on the field.
RF.

If a data base of Winner Circle Bikes was available, would that information be acceptable proof of correctness or would factory literature & data be required as proof of correctness of items in question in judging. What would be the ruling if the owner said "I did it just like the Winner Circle Documented Bike was done?" With the advancement of knowledge, 3 years down the road a Winner Circle Bike might have new discrepancies surface.