New Judging reference handbook

[portagepan]

Yeah, really, I mean, who gives a **** about the working stiffs who work all week and show up on Saturday to try to trade, buy and sell to get their one measly old steed together. Heck, the whiners ought to take a couple days off and get there early, like the big boys do. What is more important, keeping a job and putting food on the table for your family, or getting stuff for that officially cool, old machine? I know I shouldn't of said that, but I just couldn't help myself. And I don't need feedback from 500 vendors on how hard it is to get there and move on, etc. Maybe we need more small meets, or something. 'Nuff said, I'll let the big boys get back to their guns now. Mike

[Chris Haynes]

Working stiffs like me just need to take a day or two off. The meet is pretty much cherry picked by Saturday. I got tired of coming to a cherry picked meet on Saturdays so I make the sacrifice and get there on Thursday or Friday. There is only one AMCA meet West of Minnesota so if I go to a Midwest or East coast meet that is more time off work for travel. I am not complaining about it. Just stating what I do in order to find the goodies. The vendors are still selling on Saturday. Just don't complain if ya find out the part ya needed was sold on Friday.

[bikerdds]

" As a Harley judge I always felt the Indians got an easy ride, until Toney Watson gave me a masterclass on a 1948 Big Base Scout at Davenport one evening about three years ago. "
Read on and you will see what we Indian guys would think!
Steve, just wanted to mention this based on your quote about when you thought we were giving Indians an easy time. Let me tell you, we put every bike through a meat grinder! We spent more time on an Indian than was spent on other makes as a rule and used to drive Pete Heintz to drink, who thought 15 minutes was all you needed. We have taken over an hour at times when we had the man power. To make matters worse, we would ravage our own [an Indian judge having his own bike judged] so that no one could say we were giving one another a pass. Toney may not have told you this, but one of the greatest hardships for the Indian guys is the lack of factory documentation in many cases. This is why the annecdotal information on those who had access to unmolested originals has been so critical. Harley's documentation was awesome in comparison. This is one reason we miss Toney so much now. Next to Robin, he was the only other judge with the knowledge to do as an extensive a judging and educating job and why it took so long. They were my mentors. They also never cut me a minute of slack on my bikes! Both had forgotten more than the rest of all Indian judges will ever know. Those of us trained by Robin and Toney have always judged with that passion they gave us. Toney was a walking encyclopedia. Robin is the ultimate walking encyclopedia and computer wrapped into one. Try and replace either.

[exeric]

Bikerdds, you are absolutely correct about Indian motorcycle knowledge and Toney Watson's passion and immediate recall. I think Indians are exceptionally difficult to understand because, (as you said) there is a very limited amount of genuine factory documentation. With exceptions, H-D was religiously true to engineering standards and outside vendors; so there is a methodology, and consistancy for students of H-D history. My personal experience with Indians and AMCA judging is not good. The judging was completely fair and correct but the experience was humiliating. So much so, that Toney Watson apologized to me for some of the less than discrete comments made by members of the judging team. This was a number of years ago and (should) be water under the bridge but it prejudiced me to never put myself and an Indian through that experience again. That was the first bike I had judged by the AMCA but I have had a number of other bikes judged since. My judging experiences after that were both fun and enlightening.

[bikerdds]

Eric, you weren't the only one that felt that way. Lots of us did at one point. It is the reason many folks chose to never have a bike judged or quit having them judged. The turning point was when Kevin and Robin took over and we started allowing owners to be present when their machine was judged. It took a while, but the preception started to change to where judging became a learning experience and enjoyable, instead of a potentially humiliating one. We also were willing to share the knowledge both before, during, and after the meet. It wasn't a deep dark secret that some folks actually thought is should be. I started judging out of sheer frustration about the lack of knowledge circulating to the common member of the club. I was even told, if you can't lick 'em, join 'em before the whole system changed to a friendlier format. This is how I really learned it and cut my teeth on Indians. Hands on with my bikes or someone else's, if you do enough of them, you start to engrave it in your brain from sheer repetition. This is one reason we always had an apprentice be the one to write up the sheet [not just because the rest didn't want to!] because it hit the brain more when written than just hearing. You also have to visit various people's shops who restore and look over their shoulder. I have done both. I feel since I got back into bikes a little late in the game I had a lot of time to make up for. I guess at the time, I never knew it would lead where it did. Hooked for life!

[exeric]

Regardless of what went down last year; myself, and many others have the greatest respect for Kevin and Robin and what they did for AMCA judging. In reading over my previous post; I don't think I clarified my position about Indians. I love Indians, but from a restoration point of view they are very difficult to do, and for some models; not worth the trouble. The following statement always gets me in trouble, but I have found (since I first got involved with the AMCA) that Indian guys are tight lipped, and extreamly Indian-centric which always made Indian knowledge hard to obtain and this is a belief I have heard many times, from a very diverse group of antique motorcycle lovers. It always seemed to me that Indian people kept their knowledge confined to like minded groups. Of course Toney Watson was an exception and Jerry Hatfield, Kiwi Mike, and the fine folks at Jerry Greer have gone above and beyond to de-mystify '30s and later Chiefs. Too late for me as I have one Indian and zero desire for another. I think this is one of the reasons there is such a disparity between Indians and Harleys on the judging field.

[bikerdds]

Eric, you are very correct to a large degree. By jumping into the fray I was able to decipher and learn a lot that way, mostly out of desperation. To me, perhaps the worst case of hiding the knowledge was circled around the 1951 Indian EPL [engineering parts list] that was dug out of the factory stuff being disposed of years ago and rescued. For many, many years this was given to a very select few[somewhere between 10-14 original copies] who originally were not to give it to anyone! Finally, the stupidity of it was stopped by someone who gained access to it and it has finally started to get around. You would have been shocked at some who did not have it that should have. There was stuff from that list that would have kept me from ever restoring my New York City Indian police bike if I hadn't learned about it. Supposedly, the info was too explosive and would set the Indian world upside down. A complete crock! And get this, there are a few who STILL think it never should have been dispersed. There will always be those with the "I have it you don't" mentality. Thankfully this has really changed in our Indian world. That is one reason I am now doing some research articles on some of this stuff while it is still possible to discover it. Once published, any one with interest in areas such as batteries, spark plugs, tools, etc will have a better idea what it is all about for the main Indian period 1932-53. This is an area that even the knowledgable aren't very aware. Just studying the batteries took me almost a year. Hopefully, you will learn about it soon in the magazine whenever they get around to printing the article and the pictures. I was driven by the fact that we were judging some of this stuff and no one knew what it was or looked like! It wasn't produced, and the documentation next to nil.We all need to share this stuff. Sooner or later, if not documented, it may not be possible to document at all.My gripe with the batteries stemmed from no one having correct batteries, real or fake cases for the 32-39 period. Only a few had seen them in over 70 years! None had been copied. Every rigid 32-39 Indian had a battery that stuck out like a sore thumb. All had pure junk for a battery. That is coming to an end. We must share what we know. But we also have to respect the knowledge givers and give credit where due or it will go to the grave. We are in a race against time on a lot of this. Just look at how poor the documentation is for Hendersons. It is a miracle we can even build them anymore. All those who were around them originally are long gone, and there was little continuation of the knowledge pool for them. We are trying to salvage what we can for Indians, but we are already down to very few alive from the area, and only a handful who learned from the old hats and can still pass down anything. I guess that is why I still can't stomach what went down last year. These people are the "National Treasures" of our club. Politicians, both in clubs as well as our governments can really screw up some great things and great people. We have to do everything possible to keep from losing what we have. Keep up your great Hens even if you have given up on Indians!

[T. Cotten]

When is a marque "not worth the trouble" to restore?

When club politics makes it so?

Then it is time to ignore the politics, and if that includes the club for the sake of the marque, so be it.

....Cotten

[redfred84]

Hey Marty & Eric, & all,
Interesting angles you guys bring up in regards to Indian "secrets". I'm a left Coaster, and Indians are a little more thinner on the ground then back East. However, I have always received un-restricted mentoring from all the Indian crowd here. All our gurus, Bob Stark, Lee "Pop" Stanley, Cliff, Doug Burnett, Danny Reese, Jeff Grigsby (originally from CA), Johnny Bivens, Jerry Greer, Ron Link, Jim Trochet, Stan DeShong, etc....have always shared their wisdom, as well as all the other guys who weren't in the biz, but still did a lot of riding & collecting. Marv Baker comes to mind, Ron Wishart, Chip Murphy, a bunch of great, enthusiastic guys; all for the Indian cause. Now, most of these guys were/are racers and riders, & couldn't care less about judging (except maybe Marv & Ron). But out West here, we support each other, and share what scattered information we have. Hell, even when I used to race, we helped each other, especially if it was for the Indian vs Harley theme. The Dodge Bros out of So.Cal would help me with prep, and tips. They were top contenders all the time, and when their mag died, I gave them mine for the race, as I wasn't in the running. They won.
True, some of the facts are sketchy when researching an Indian, especially with the lag between the add team, and what really got produced. It is kind of a disfunctional family we have with Indians, but one that welcomes all enthusiasts, and riders alike. The Euro crowd is even more enthusiastic than we are, and tend to ride much more also. They don't seem as anal as some of us on correctness, although, they would want that correct John Brown Headlight for their '30 Chief Bobber with polished alum. tanks!
The Aussies seem even more intense than the Euro Tribe. They think nothing of riding an original paint '25 Chief (with no front brake) 40 miles to get a beer. All these guys would take the shirt off their back to help a fellow Indian rider too.
Perhaps this reluctance & hesitance is only on the East Coast? That's the only place I see people witholding info, and aid to fellow Indian Riders!

Getting ready to kick some HD ass in the up-coming Great Race in Yosemite next month. Maybe some you all should come on out, and learn/share some dirt on these bikes?

RF
AMCA #05

[fillibuster]

bikerdds, I want to offer you my 2 cents:
Sometimes TIME is the best healer. Peace-and-quiet are helpful also. We have to doubt that the club's big hats would radically change things again, so the change is here to stay. The sooner we lay-to-rest our unhappy past, the sooner the pleasant future re-emerges, WITH our previously deposed friends as part of it. We have to let them stay out of the ring for a little while.

[Sargehere]

I started this thread so long ago (three days and forty posts) reporting on the pleasant experience we had, judging at the Eustis National Meet last weekend using the new Judging Reference Manual. It regularizes the numerical values to be assigned for common restoration discrepencies, and is a God-send to guide our teams when assigning values to observed faults. and we have Chief Judge Steve Dawdy and the judging rules advisory team to thank for its inception and execution. I especially like the definitions it lays out, finally getting everyone on the same page, on the definitions of what constitutes an "accessory" and what is an "option," and exactly what is passing/failing as a "repro frame."

It is critical, during this period of restructuring, that our Chief Judge continue to attend all of the National Meets; to hold Judging Seminars on Saturday and to manage the Judging itself on Sunday. By the end of this year I think it will be obvious to all, if allowed to run its course, that the new judging rules mandated by the club BOD last year are working, and that AMCA judging is once again "running on all eight cylinders." (or one, two, three or four, in the case of our two-wheel, single track vehicles!)

At this critical time, the BOD has (outrageously, or rather, short-sightedly, it seems to me) voted to slash Chief Judge Steve's allowance for his mandatory motor travel all over the Continental United States to only "actual gas receipts and two nights lodging at the site of the meet." Of all the things to choose to "economize" at the time when we need Steve on-the-ground at every National Meet!

The norm for the club to pay for insuring his attendance at National Meets WAS to compensate our Chief Judge the IRS-mandated Federal Mileage Rate for automobile travel, which for 2011 is 51¢ per mile. That's the fuel (calculated before the recent sharp rise in the price of fuel) costs along with tires and "normal wear-and-tear" allowance for Steve to wear out his automobile, putting in about 15,000 miles this year, back-and-forth from his home in Iowa to the National Meets.

Now, this is a cause I can get behind: I think it's outrageous for the Club to now ask its Chief Judge to make every meet, but to compensate him only 'gas money' when the meets are spread from coast-to-coast and almost border-to-border of our 3,000 mile-wide continent, as if we were asking someone to be in charge of meetings, and the meetings he'll have to attend are right around the corner from his house! That's not an "economy move" by the AMCA BOD, it's insane.
It is, most of all, because Steve isn't a high-roller, but just a regular guy with unusual dedication to this club. Now, the BOD is asking him to make a monetary donation to the club far in excess of anyone else in the club! The ordinary board members are not required to be at more than two National Meets a year: Eustis and Davenport. Steve, or a close representative, needs to be at them all. He has stated that he just can't afford it, and if the BOD insists that he does, the search for a (very wealthy, if not to say foolish) replacement Chief Judge is going to be on once again!

So, let's all get behind our Chief Judge, and avoid, if we can, more of this Keystone Kops school of personnel management-style that we've seen come out of the AMCA BOD in recent years. I can only pray that Steve and the BOD can come to an amicable resolution of this latest short-sighted, penny-wise but pound-foolish decision by the AMCA Board. Thanks!

[bikerdds]

Gerry, until we have a board elected by the members, you can expect this type of behaivior. We as members have no recourse.
The chief judge doesn't have to make every meet. In his place can be the assistant head judge or a national deputy judge, but only one will be compensated.

[bikerdds]

Phil, I have always felt that time heals all wounds myself. That may not be the case here. Time will drive away many permanately. For some players, there are alternatives, all of which will ultimately deprive the club and the members who didn't deserve what went down. The window of opportunity may be open only so long. Hope you are right.

[redfred84]

Jerry,
This is how things grow out-of-hand, and rumors fly; by public statements that are not backed with facts. Firstly, the Chief Judge is NOT required or expected to attend each and every meet. Never was. The Assistant Chief, or a National Deputy Judge can fill in for the task if need be. This proceedure has been in practice for many years now. It is way more economical for the Club, and not so demanding on the Chief Judge. Plus, it just makes sense. There is no need to foot the bill of sending the Chief to the European Chapter, or out to California when the two National Deputy (and also Judging Committee members) have these meets covered.
There has been no cuts to anyone's travel since last year, when we opted away from the Fed Rate to just actual fuel receipts. Fuel prices were on the rise then, and still are. Most people fly anyway, as it is generally much cheaper. The Judging awards are refined now, so that they lend themselves for shipping ahead of time, and don't require to be carried, or delivered by the Chief.
So, the Chief is not asked, or expected to hit every meet. That would be outrageous. Instead, we have qualified National Deputies, and an Assistant Chief in various locations to take up the slack.
You are very correct in the positives of the new Judging Guidelines produced by the Judging Committee under Chief Dawdy. Steve has galvanized us into a very busy organization, bent on refining and streamlining our Judging process. It is a major step in making all the judging more uniform as well, plus helps entrants in thier restorations.
Steve has done a monuemental job as Chief, and has gone above & beyond by travaling as much as he has last year. Hopefully now we can continue task with our new Guidlines, and criteria that we've adopted as a Committee all during last year.
RF.

[Sargehere]

Red Fred, first, thanks for commenting. (and it's "Gerry," with a "G," BTW, or just Sarge) But I also suggest that you check the facts, perhaps with Steve. By my statement that, "the Chief Judge is expected," I wrote that in full knowledge that the Chief Judge, or his Assistant Chief, or one of the others you mentioned who can stand-in for him, is expected to attend each National Meet, at least here in the Continental U.S., but my point is that the 51¢/mile IRS Federal Mileage Rate should be paid at least to one of them to go to organize judging at every meet this year. And the Chief Judge should have the prerogative; make the call, whether he wants to go himself or ask one of the others.

Neither Steve nor one of his representatives, as national officers, should be expected to use up their automobiles and tires in donation to the club for only "gas money and two nights in a motel at the meet site;" especially while we are still installing and tweaking the new judging scheme mandated last year by the Board. Steve, or someone high up, will have to be present to introduce the subject of this thread, the published Judging Guidelines, to mostly fresh sets of AMCA judges and apprentices at every meet coming up on the schedule this year. Judging as it stands now shows the potential to be something that can soon be made to run on its own like a well-oiled sewing machine, but not this year; not yet!

If you check, you'll notice that back up at the head of this thread, after my first post, in Post #2, that Sunnydave independently confirms what I reported of the situation by asking, "...why did I hear that Steve is stepping down as Chief Judge after this meet??" Steve didn't express that statement only to me at Eustis. Unless there is some action by someone, he indicated that Eustis was his last meet as AMCA Chief Judge: in fact. Personally, I hope Steve's still the AMCA Chief Judge at Oley, Pa. on April 29th. That seems to give the BoD about six weeks to hash this out with him.

I really don't want to see that whole can of worms uncapped upon the AMCA membership again, so soon after the debacle of last year. You saw the sabers come out just as soon as I broached the subject of AMCA Judging by authoring this thread, Fred. Wounds are far from healed by any means in the aftermath of the Kevin and Robin lynchings of 2010. We don't need to initiate another personnel search for a new Chief Judge so soon. Let it be, by in this case, at least, listening to Steve.

There's some chance that, given some history of uniformity and consistency that they can come to rely upon, that at least some of those people who are still wondering, those "former judges"/marque-expert brain banks who are standing on the sidelines watching these new Judging Rules play out, might realize that the "storm" really has blown over, and that this is not just the false calm in the eye of an even greater storm that is now passing, and that they may make their way back into taking an active part on the AMCA field judging without stepping into a continuing tempest. Or, the BoD can alienate another unhappy Chief Judge who has indicated that he can't afford to travel all over the continent for the compensation offered, and set the wildfires of succession once more ablaze. Please check with Steve, Fred.