New Judging reference handbook

[Sargehere]

...So you are off base with your facts.

Bikerdds, my quote predates your quote. Mine is from Post #2 of the above-cited thread begun by Robin Markey, dated 3-13-2010. Again here: http://www.antiquemotorcycle.org/bbo...stile-Takeover
(paragraph 2, beginning at line 15, and stretching, through extensive elaboration, to the last line of that paragraph, line 27). I agree: many versions of "the story" were offered, but patient reading of that, and other retellings here on the forum, give one a pretty full picture (not pretty!) of how the whole grisly episode unfolded. But after several months of his venting and telling and retelling, I jumped in here to tell Robin that enough was enough. He'd told his story, and that it was time to give it a rest. The decision to revamp the judging had been legally made at the top, and was not going to be reversed through more whining in this forum.

So what did Kevin and Robin do to deserve your what appears as this hatred? Way over the top, man! There was a lot that set this in motion well before the board meeting that you obviously were not aware of.

On the contrary, though I wasn't involved in the controversy of the "new judging system" before learning of it by attending the 2010 Eustis National Meet, I have been "schooled in it" extensively since! Robin explained and re-explained every detail he recollected, particularly unabashedly and "freshly" in the thread I cited, to every member of the club willing to read it, in his extensive writing here in this forum on the subject.

Hatred? I have no hatred for Robin, personally. There appears to have been a lot of confusion, and much ego-bruising in the unfolding of this dark episode in the club's history that y'all (regrettably) have disinterred, but if you have ever been engaged in business or the military at a high level, you know that these things go on. I think they call it "hardball." Or, "if it gets too hot..."

It should go without saying that you need to consider yourself bulletproof, with nerves of steel and with an iron will, to play in the big leagues, to carry on my sports metaphor, and that the AMCA is the big leagues of this world-wide, multi-million dollar antique motorcycle game; a fact that was brought into sharp focus by just that episode. Kevin was a man who was also attacked, something which I agree was very wrong in the way it went down, but he and Robin just got out-maneuvered politically. After the initial shock, Kevin showed maturity through it all.

On the contrary, the impression I brought away of Robin's constitution after reading all of his rambling discourse in the cited thread, and his others, is of someone who went weak-kneed, and became as petulant as a child denied his expected reward, when a backbone, wise counsel, and most of all, the patience of a saint were called for. I'm sorry for Robin, but I simply don't want a person who exhibits such characteristics when the going gets tough as AMCA Chief Judge.

I have known Mr. Markey at least 30 years, and never had a conflict with him, and heard only good things about him and how helpful he has been to other members within his areas of expertise. But they are not the indicators of leadership.

I will agree with you that the judging is an on going thing that constantly needs to be massaged, but do you just accept everything like a lemming going over a cliff blindly following it's leader? That makes as much sense as agreeing with congress getting us further in debt like it will just disappear or fix itself, while we fall further behind other countries and spend ourselves into backrupcy. One person [the RIGHT person] can make a difference. This is also why we have a committee although many were asked[forced out] to leave. No one has been asked to not judge that I know, however, they just are uncomfortable with the circumstances which should be a private matter.
I also agree with trying to move forward, but when moving forward has set you backward based on results, it is time to realize what has really happened. That is why I mentioned you are drinking the Koolaid. LESS bikes are being judged. Period. Just look at eustis two years ago and compare to this year. And, being judged by less qualified individual in most cases.You can rant all you want about all the great new judges working with the older judges, but what good are they when the knowledge is on the sidelines to teach them right. Right or wrong,do you really feel that is what they want?

ON THE CONTRARY, I'm comforted, even excited, to see all of the new people who are taking an interest in AMCA judging. I remind you that all those brain banks you claim are on the sidelines learned the craft exactly like the ones learning to judge now: by jumping in and getting their feet wet; beginning as people with experience of their own with at least one old bike to bring to learning judging, and with a heightened interest in learning exactly what made the old bikes tick, they are stepping forward and taking up a personal challenge. It's not magic, it's perserverence. The AMCA will survive and thrive. That's not being a "lemming," Bikerdds, that's being realistic. Practice improves the product.

The bottom line is, NO ONE handled this correctly, but I guess we can just believe there is nothing wrong with our judging or at least it's politics and continue to see it go down hill with less and less bikes being judged more and more poorly.

I fully agree that the change was handled really, really poorly, Bikerdds. But positing that AMCA judging is now retrogressing because different people are in charge is poppycock. I started this thread talking about the new Judging Guidelines Manual. It's well-done, and I believe that it's going to prove to be the best thing we've seen happen in years. It insures that like-deductions are made for like-discrepencies, and definitions never before explained in black-and-white are in there for all to see. No one thought of that before Steve Dawdy and the Judging Committee this past winter. If anyone did, they certainly didn't act upon their idea.

...I gave a lot of credit to Steve for trying to accomplish what he did. He did not ask for what happened. You never have to agree with everything that is out on the table, however. You don't just move ahead blindly , either. And you are wrong if you believe folks weren't removed from the judging committee. They were among the most knowledgeable with years of experience and many with well over 100 bikes judged, as well as building and entering bikes of their own.
Second half? I didn't know we were playing football, but the way our judging hobby has been kicked around lately, I would say the final score isn't in. It just will take a little longer to see how it plays out. All the best to you.

And all of my best wishes to you and yours, also, Bikerdds. Reasonable men and cooler heads finally come to reasoned conclusions; we always do. People who don't agree know that there is a time, before the leadership makes their decision, to disagree and to provide input. But also know that once a decision has been made, the time for bickering is over and you follow the plan, or you pack your bags; as the saying goes, "There's the door." The AMCA isn't going to dissolve. Nothing will replace "the club," and judging is getting better and better. "Practice" doesn't degrade the results of anything. We're now in our second year of the new judging regimen, and personally, I like what I see. I'm moving on.

I would like to see you support the continuation of mileage re-compensation for our Chief Judge to attend ALL OF the National Meets. I can't think of anything more important to judging right now than his presence at meets, introducing and explaining the new format to an ever-growing number of newly-interested members. That measly compensation has been threatened, as I explained in a post above.

[Sargehere]

New Judging Guidelines Manual

I was under the impression that the club paid for the Chief and Asst. Chief judges travel. Am I incorrect?

Time passes and things change, Chris. But thank you for bringing us back to the subject! The AMCA Semiannual meeting was held at the Eustis meet. With fuel in the range of $4 a gallon, apparently the AMCA Board has gotten "cold feet" when it comes to the importance of the subject of judging within the club. 'Makes ya wonder...

I understand that the Chief Judge's compensation was reduced to only "actual fuel receipts and two nights' local lodging." Period. Steve has expressed that he can't continue in the volunteer position of Chief Judge if it will cost him $15,000 to $20,000 for the year to be present at the National Meets and do his job. Who could? That's just crazy!

The IRS Federal Mileage allowance for automobiles is 51¢ per mile, as set for calendar year 2011. That's the standard that "everyone" uses who pays mileage, and was decided before the recent skyrocketing of gas prices everywhere.

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear All, I can confirm that Steve Dawdy did another great job last Sunday at Eustis. You can see the trend over the years that we are getting fewer Class 1, 2 and 3 bikes, more Class 6 and 7, and more non-American bikes. I sat in on Steve's Saturday apprentice and judges' seminars and you can see we have younger guys coming through the Club with just those interests - great!

I was pleased to see the Guidelines book being used at Eustis for the first time, plus it was being marked up and critiqued for amendments and updates. This should really help train new judges and ensure consistency across makes. As a Harley judge I always felt the Indians got an easy ride, until Toney Watson gave me a masterclass on a 1948 Big Base Scout at Davenport one evening about three years ago. Then two years ago I went round Oley with Ray Dhue leading the British bike team. They didn't know carburetor serial numbers the way we did on the US bikes, and missed a couple of plastic valve caps on early bikes, but were extremely knowledgeable. At Eustis there were only two VLs, both of which I'd judged before, so I chose to apprentice with the Honda team led by Bob Anderson. Whoa! He had a well thumbed Honda identification manual with him, and there are still plenty of original paint Japanese bikes out there, but here was a guy who had seen a lot of bikes and had a lot of parts through his hands. Respect! Those Japanese bikes earned their awards just the same way as the Harleys, Indians and Triumphs.

There were a couple of appeals dealt with at the meet, and we have a written appeals procedure for any bikes that slip through. We finished about 1 pm and most people stayed to give well-earned and sincere applause to all those receiving awards. That was a roomful of people who could have been home a day earlier and chose to volunteer their time for our Club. Likewise the bike owners I saw did not seem to be in it for the money or even the glory, but just wanted to 'get it right' and preserve a motorcycle as it was at the dealer when new. It was a good session.

[bikerdds]

Steve,

Did you ever judge with Robin on Indians or Hondas? Robin is it, when it comes to Indians from the early 30’s on up to and including the Indian Enfields. He’s also one of the top Honda guys, having worked on them daily his entire life. If you never judged with him, it’s a shame, it’s jaw-dropping. Robin’s mind doesn’t work like most of us, he’s like a walking encyclopedia.
You mention Toney Watson. You weren't as close to Toney Watson as a lot of us were. Toney was extremely knowledgeable on Indians and pretty knowledgeable on a lot of Hendersons, Harleys and other motorcycles too. Do you know who Toney went to when he had a question, as do most of the people in the Indian world? The answer is, the same guy that is receiving no respect from the AMCA hierarchy.

[Chris Haynes]

The Club pays the travel of the Chief Judge to any of the National Meets that perform Judging. In the past, both the Chief, and the Assistant Chief had their travel expenses taken care of by the Club. But that was streamlined at last years' Eustice BOD meeting in massive cost savings budget cut across the board. As it stands now; The Chief is compensated for travel at Judging events. If, he does not attend, then the Assistant, or a National Deputy Judge can fill in, and be compensated for their travel, but never two at the same time. The BOD also did away with the Govenment mileage cost, and only compensates for fuel; no more vehicle wear & tear allowance like the National Rate.
RF.

Thanks for clearing that up Fred.

[Chris Haynes]

There were a couple of appeals dealt with at the meet, and we have a written appeals procedure for any bikes that slip through. We finished about 1 pm and most people stayed to give well-earned and sincere applause to all those receiving awards. That was a roomful of people who could have been home a day earlier and chose to volunteer their time for our Club. Likewise the bike owners I saw did not seem to be in it for the money or even the glory, but just wanted to 'get it right' and preserve a motorcycle as it was at the dealer when new. It was a good session.

Perhaps this is why some meets have switched to Saturday judging.

[Sargehere]

Steve,

Did you ever judge with Robin on Indians or Hondas? Robin is it, when it comes to Indians from the early 30’s on up to and including the Indian Enfields. He’s also one of the top Honda guys, having worked on them daily his entire life. If you never judged with him, it’s a shame, it’s jaw-dropping. Robin’s mind doesn’t work like most of us, he’s like a walking encyclopedia.
You mention Toney Watson. You weren't as close to Toney Watson as a lot of us were. Toney was extremely knowledgeable on Indians and pretty knowledgeable on a lot of Hendersons, Harleys and other motorcycles too. Do you know who Toney went to when he had a question, as do most of the people in the Indian world? The answer is, the same guy that is receiving no respect from the AMCA hierarchy.

Marty, don't you think it's too bad, then; a cryin' shame, really, that he, and some others who shall remain nameless, so childishly decided to take their ball and go home, then, depriving all of us, the entire club, the benefit of their expertise? (In faint hope that the whole system would collapse in their absence (?) which it hasn't).

To be an accomplished AMCA Judge is to be a walking encyclopedia in their area of expertise. But what people miss is that, no matter how much data is packed into their gray matter, it doesn't say a thing for their level-headedness and stage of maturity. People are so easily misled! Here is a perfectly good, knowlegdable field judge who is selfishly thinking only of himself, instead of the rest of the club.

It's just like most of us have seen in the course of our careers, at one-time-or-another. Sometimes the best worker on the job doesn't necessarily make the best foreman, or boss. Kevin didn't know the details of the bikes particularly well, yet he made a good Chief Judge, because that requires an entirely different skill set. Robin knows the bikes very well, but would definitely NOT make a good Chief Judge, and people saw that. Some did.

The very first test that managers give a good worker who catches their attention as possible manager material is a stress test, just a little problem, to see how the unsuspecting dupe reacts. If they can keep their head and take something in stride, they normally pass; or they can go all berserk, all to pieces, and reveal what they're (NOT) made of, and they remain just a "good worker" on the assembly line. I wish more people would realize that when considering who would make a good Chief Judge, and it's not often the best Field Judge. Just sumthin to chew on.

[redfred84]

I for one, would like to see the Judging Process take place on Saturdays. This way the judging would be more exposed to everyone, and more a part of the entire meet, rather than a semi-private showing of bikes that are usually cooped up in a trailer during most of the meet.
I realize that the Judging isn't for everyone, but it is a very important part of the preservation of our hobby. Someday, our beloved machines may have to be certified to share the modern roads; proven that they are indeed what they claim to be. Saturday judgings would actually be a draw for most members to both witness, and participate. Especially when they fire them up! Perhaps the Winners Circle Awards could be given out at the Banquet?
Just some thoughts, RF.

[bikerdds]

He not only was a good “field” judge, he was an outstanding Assistant Chief Judge who knew the system and how it worked. He wasn’t given a stress test, he was given a nuclear bomb. He did however deal with “stress tests” on the judging field, meet after meet, when an owner received their judging score…as you say “just sumthin to chew on”. There’s no reason he should share his knowledge with the AMCA after what they did to him, they should have thought of that before they fired him. There never was the hope it would collapse, as that would preclude any possibility of it being ressurected. It was postulated that experience level would suffer, which I have witnessed for numerous makes, and the entrants would go down, which it has. To me that still sends a signal something isn't quite right.

I can tell you don’t know him very well personally, since you referred to him as selfish. Before this happened he was always willing to share his knowledge freely, often spending hours with owners before and after judging. He was normally THE last to leave the judging field. Believe me, I personally pestered him more than you will ever know. What he is is a nitprick [by his own admission], which he is quite proud of. That attention to detail is what got me hooked. Do you think he and I started out that well from the beginning? It is one of his favorite stories! I told his wife, who is this a--hole after he had reamed me a new one early on. When she said it was her husband, can you imagine how I felt? It was the start of a beautiful thing. Selfish? Never.

I also believe it was you that told him to take his cause elsewhere, so which way do you want it, do you want him to stay or do you want him to leave? One thing he won’t be is a pawn in the chess game that is being played by the rulers of the AMCA.

[bikerdds]

Fred, A lot of the owners and judges are also vendors. Saturday is the best day of vending. So, go ahead and make the judging on Saturday and you will mess up the vending, the last good thing that the club has to offer. When judging is on Saturday, the vending comes to a standstill. The vendors aren't going to travel many miles to vend of Friday and leave at noon on Saturday. It has been tried and failed miserably.

[redfred84]

HI Marty,
I hear ya. It's just about impossible to please everyone. I always thought that the best vending was on Thursday though? Sat. was more for the local looky loos? Either way, Sundays are pretty darn isolated. I remember the Field Events going well on Saturdays at a lot of events, and many of the participants were vendors as well.
For the Good of the Club, RF.

[bikerdds]

Fred, Thursday is always supposed to be set up, but most of the meets have unofficially morphed into Thursday being open for business. It creates a problem when they are advertised to open to the public Friday, but this is usually unenforced. It has been criticized as unfair as well in that the so called public doesn't seem to have as much chance for the goodies, which often disappear before the meets officially begin. I guess that is why most of us die hards are ready for action Thursday, but many venders still do not arrive until Friday, thus they want to vend Saturday and have no judging.

[36 knuck man]

Thanks Sarge for the reply, you make very good sense and I understand more about the judging now. Like I said earlier, I think they do an outstanding job and put in a lot of time and hard work for the love of the hobby, thanks, Larry

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Bikerdds, no I never did judge with Robin in the past, but still hope it may be possible in the future. On Saturday judging, that's what we've done at the European meet since we started 6 or 7 years ago. We only have 20-30 bikes in for judging, and give out the prizes at the Saturday banquet, which is always sold out. A number of the judges are also vendors, as at every meet I guess, but they manage to get away for an hour or so to donate their time to the Club as judges. Most vendors/judges stay over at the meet site Saturday night, so we still have some vending Sunday morning as people say their farewells after breakfast. It works for us.

[Chris Haynes]

Fred, A lot of the owners and judges are also vendors. Saturday is the best day of vending. So, go ahead and make the judging on Saturday and you will mess up the vending, the last good thing that the club has to offer. When judging is on Saturday, the vending comes to a standstill. The vendors aren't going to travel many miles to vend of Friday and leave at noon on Saturday. It has been tried and failed miserably.

I shop the meets hard on Thursday and Friday. If the meet has the judging on Sunday I usually go someplace else for the day as nothing new shows up on Saturday.