New judging rules

[bmh]

I was involved in a local H-D dealers racing program back in the late 80's. Even in the 883 class they had at the time on the road course which was designed for guys to bring and race their stock little sportsters, nothing went around that track "as it was delivered from the factory". First, if you tried to compete on street tires you would be in the gravel or in the way. Not sure, but I don't even think they would let you through tech without race spec tires. Mirrors and signals had to be removed. Headlights were removed most of the time, don't remember if taping them was legal. Certain fasteners had to be safety wired, etc, etc. And that was stock class racing. The real race bikes were always built not bought. Yes at one time they were complete and brand new, usually only when a new chassis was needed. A lot of times the season would start with nothing more than a new motor. So I guess what I am saying is if none of the bikes we ever used in competition would be eligible to be shown in the competition class......What's the point? Racing is about innovation and pushing the envelope, totally the opposite of stock.

[fillibuster]

I was involved in a local H-D dealers racing program back in the late 80's. Even in the 883 class they had at the time on the road course which was designed for guys to bring and race their stock little sportsters, nothing went around that track "as it was delivered from the factory". First, if you tried to compete on street tires you would be in the gravel or in the way. Not sure, but I don't even think they would let you through tech without race spec tires. Mirrors and signals had to be removed. Headlights were removed most of the time, don't remember if taping them was legal. Certain fasteners had to be safety wired, etc, etc. And that was stock class racing. The real race bikes were always built not bought. Yes at one time they were complete and brand new, usually only when a new chassis was needed. A lot of times the season would start with nothing more than a new motor. So I guess what I am saying is if none of the bikes we ever used in competition would be eligible to be shown in the competition class......What's the point? Racing is about innovation and pushing the envelope, totally the opposite of stock.

Outlaws. I don't know how one can establish consistent criteria for this.
The competition bikes are my favorite, but they're outside of the rules. I'm anxious to read a guiding mission statement regarding them.

[bmh]

Outlaws. I don't know how one can establish consistent criteria for this.
The competition bikes are my favorite, but they're outside of the rules. I'm anxious to read a guiding mission statement regarding them.

Wouldn't the same criteria used for Period Modified also work for competition models?

[Chris Haynes]

Wouldn't the same criteria used for Period Modified also work for competition models?

Period modified does not earn a National Award.

[bmh]

Period modified does not earn a National Award.

Neither does the competition class according to the handbook.

[kval]

Neither does the competition class according to the handbook.

Brian
competition bikes WERE always judged for national awards, the only difference was most of them were judged "as raced" as opposed to "as they left the factory".

[fillibuster]

Brian
competition bikes WERE always judged for national awards, the only difference was most of them were judged "as raced" as opposed to "as they left the factory".

and qu RF: "Non-factory racers will abide by a different criteria; most likely that of how they were raced, in their time, under the rules of the sanctioning body of race style (AMA, or NHRA, or what ever). So yes, this would create a new catagory to say. Most other forms of altered bikes fit under the Period Modified Class." end qu of RF.

??

[redfred84]

Competition Bikes

I forget if the question is if racers will fall under National Judging or not. They always have been judged under our National category. The only difference (yet to come) is that they will be graded on a different criteria. We still want them Judged through the National, and not the local hosting chapter's format.
HTH, RF.

[T. Cotten]

Well, now I'm really confused.

....Cotten

[bmh]

Brian
competition bikes WERE always judged for national awards, the only difference was most of them were judged "as raced" as opposed to "as they left the factory".

So they would be eligible to receive a junior, senior all the way up to winners circle? I was unaware it worked that way, but honestly I can't remember ever watching one being judged.

So then, would it not be a reasonable expectation that the owner of any competition machine would comply with the first guideline and provide documentation that the machine in question was used in competition? As I understand it now, only factory made racing models displayed as shipped are eligible. Just think, the Munroe Special would be ineligible. That's just wrong!

Forgetting for the moment that we have eliminated a vast majority of racing machines from the show. If I get the idea behind this we are trying to keep "fake" machines out. How does one tell if a machine is a real factory racer? Did all the manufacturers always designate them with special serial numbers? I would also like to point out that not all competition models were used in competition. The XLCH was originally a competition model, lots of them never saw a track. Even knew at least two fellas who bought XR's and outfitted them for everyday street use. I think most people would rather ogle real racers with provenance. Factory fresh is almost as bad as fake in this case, at least that's the way I see it.

[bmh]

Another thought just came to me. Does this mean all competition models have to be restored? Lets face it, they weren't dented and dinged when they came out of the crate. And you also need to undo all the mods made during its career.

[redfred84]

race stuff

It appears that some people would rather be combatant than to think of the big picture here.

Fact A; Nationally judged bikes are based against an "as delivered from the factory to the dealer" criteria.

This has been working fine over the years, especially with the refinements introduced and groomed by Peter H., Kevin, Robin, and now Steve D. An on going process, that is pretty much accepted the world over as the best. Both for restored machines, and original; including factory works racers.....after all they came from the factory this way.

Fact B; Non Factory competition bikes. Such as Ed Kretz's Daytona winning Scout, Burt's LSR streamliner, Mr. Markey's competition Scout, etc...... These are very historic machines that don't fit the factory criteria. Hence, some criteria adaptions are necessary to fit these bikes into the recognition they deserve. Since they obviously don't fit in the with previously mentioned criteria of Fact A, we need to recognize the guidelines used in their day. Thus the specific racing form's sanctioning body will most likely be the venue. Ie AMA, GP, etc...

Please realize that this is an all out effort to fully recognize these machines, and give them their just deserved rights. Otherwise, it would just be too easy to ball them up and call them period modifieds. This is a huge, delicate matter, and is being dealt with utmost care and consideration. So much so, that a symposium of noted racers will be on hand at the Wauseon meet to help discuss this, and contribute their comments & views ( Wauseon is themed after Competition Machines).

Funny how much of the chatter on this sensitive line is by members who have never shown a bike, don't have competition bikes, or ever plan to partake, or contribute. Yet, the guys who do have some controversial stuff have bent over backwards to help. I'm amazed at how the Crocker community has jumped in to painstakingly, and patiently help us with full docuementation and proof with their marque. They have truely taken a positive stance with the National Judging System. And why? They kick ass, and do what they want to do without anything anyone of us could say or do! Yet they take the time to help, educate, and conform with the system...........for the future.

We have a very dedicated and knowledgable committee working on this; people who feel so strongly on these matters that they have volunteered their efforts and time to refine, and continuously improve this system. They welcome and appreciate all realistic input and ideas. We all need to be constructive on this.

A quote written on the tank of my Sport Scout flat tracker from when I was a contender; Go fast, turn left. RF.

[T. Cotten]

Funny how much of the chatter on this sensitive line is by members who have never shown a bike, don't have competition bikes, or ever plan to partake, or contribute.

Think of the big picture, RF!

You do not need to be a player to have a stake in the game.

....Cotten

[fillibuster]

qu RF: "It appears that some people would rather be combatant than to think of the big picture here." end qu

I didn't see Brian's comments as combative, Fred. He made a fair and polite case for our club's view on part of the big picture. And while a majority of us members have not, and never will enter bikes into the judging arena, this does not mean that we don't subscribe to our club's mission theology (if I may call it that). That theology is heavily influenced by judging criteria, so we shouldn't be declared ineligible to comment.
On the whole, you've been very generous and patient with us here, and I'll thank you again for your contribution. And as these things are a work in progress, I'm pleased that you are part of the crew.

[redfred84]

Thanks Phil,
I wasn't narrowing anyone in particular on this. Just seems that this subject tends to get un-necessarily twisted, and by some who really don't partake directly. One would think that any gripes, or miss-understandings would come from guys who show bikes to be judged often.
Judging is a tough one, very thankless, and never pleases all. As long as the machines survive, then we accomplished our goal.
Thanks for everyone's input, we are trying to make things a simple as possible, for the good of the machine.
RF.