New judging rules

[Chris Haynes]

The judging at Dixon went on fine. No problems. The judging changes are minor and are mostly about reproduction top ends and frames making a street model into a racer. Or out and out reproduction machines being passed off as originals.
We had one machine with altered numbers but no counterfeit bikes. All is well.

[T. Cotten]

Chris!

'All is well' sounds great!
"Streetmodel to a racer" is forbidden?

So I gotta ask the whole judging crew:
Is "granpa's" wildcat one-off hillclimber/bobber Chief with a 19" on the front to be switched to the rear for the hill (when he got there)just not historical enough to be a 'competition' machine?

Was everything on the hill factory-sponsored?

What Indian's other that 648's are still judgeable in the Competition Class?

If only Factory competition machines are eligible.. why are they not just another piece in the restored-unrestored catagories, instead of a whole catagory for just a select few models?

Are they not just another model?

Don't take this question personally,

....Cotten

[Chris Haynes]

Not personal at all Cotten. Factory built racers are fine. But as I understand it a restored machine must be as it left the factory, not as Uncle Willy modified it. What about unrestored machines? I can't answer that.

[Sargehere]

Chris! 'All is well' sounds great!
"Streetmodel to a racer" is forbidden?

So I gotta ask the whole judging crew:
Is "granpa's" wildcat one-off hillclimber/bobber Chief with a 19" on the front to be switched to the rear for the hill (when he got there)just not historical enough to be a 'competition' machine?

That homebuilt hillclimber Chief is exactly as representative, in a different era, perhaps, of what left the factory (the point of "restoration") as this '56 Panhead with a peanut tank, 12-over springer, ape hangers, sissy bar and gold metalflake paint job, that someone rides in to the meetsite or brings by and displays as a curiousity.
It's mildly "historical," but that doesn't make it something eligible to be judged by the club. I'll say it again, Tom: You seem to want to find a national award category for everything that can be ridden or pushed into a meetsite. That's just not what the club is about.

Was everything on the hill factory-sponsored?
What Indian's other that 648's are still judgeable in the Competition Class?
If only Factory competition machines are eligible.. why are they not just another piece in the restored-unrestored catagories, instead of a whole catagory for just a select few models?
Are they not just another model?

You're confusing "factory sponsored," pro-raced team bikes, with factory-built racing models available to the general public. Even homologation-numbered bikes. "Factory-built" as a competition bike, does not mean only those built for "factory-sponsored" pro-racing teams, like the "real" 8-valves, and "Chicago motors," et. al.

It's not limited to only factory-sponsored bikes, but if they were factory-built with the model number designation as being originally a competition machine: a Harley-Davidson KR, KRTT, XR, and yes, an Indian 648, and many others, all the way back. They are eligible as competition bikes, restored to looking either like they did when they fell off the truck at the motorcycle dealer's place that sponsored/raced/sold them, or, I think, "real" bikes, 'restored,' or 'preserved,' with provenance to a specific team or rider, showing the modifications that the bike might have acquired within about five years of delivery, under the latest version of the rules (being rules that still seem subject to further refinement, is why I say that).

Don't take this question personally, ....Cotten

Eye don't take anything you say personally, if you don't couch it in sarcastic put-downs, or misfired attempts at cheap shots. Just stick to the subject and you'll catch more fish, fewer eels, out here, Tom.

[redfred84]

Wow, Tom, calm down.
You jumped from Chris's report that things went smoothly at Dixon, to a completely unrelated subject about the stalled non-factory racer treatment. You mentioned mud-pits in your personal emails (btw, please email me direct at redfred47@gmail.com, instead of using the PM version of the forum). I guess some people are just born combatants.
Let's take a deep breath, and invision the criteria of what we are basing the machines on; as they left the factory for the dealer. Now, does Skeeters home-brew hill climber, or Ed Kretz's Daytona winning Scout fit this bill? NO, is the answer. Are Skeeter's hill climber, and Ed Kretz's Scoutie significant, historic, and part of culture of our machines? Absolutely. However, they just cant be graded on the same court of rules as factory-to-dealer bikes. It doesn't take a genious to figure this out.
Yes, in the '40s, an Indian 648 Daytona Scout seems to be the ONLY factory racer, eligible for regular judging. However, the entire panel of Judges on the Judging Committee, realize that there are very significant, non-factory racers that should be recognized. So an entirely new criteria is being developed for these historic bikes. It will most likely be based on the AMA rules of the time of manufacture of said bike, for the duration the thing was raced. (or who ever was the sancionting body for the race form at the period)
Kinda makes sense actually. This will keep the alum rims & disc brakes off the WRs that we hope to judge soon.
Wauseon is themed for Competition bikes. There will be a simposium of racers there for discussion on our criteria for judging these historic racers. There are a lot of intelligent people involved in preserving this history. Not just mud slingers, but well heeled, well meaning, qualified experts who wish to do the Club some good.
Myself, I'm trying to rail road the club to have red-headed Indian owners only. So far I have one; but he is balding rapidly.
Used to race myself actually, RF.

[T. Cotten]

RF!

I appreciate your definitive answer to my questions!

....Cotten

[Paps]

Judged on as left the factory.......OK....Let us be real picky here now. The bike got dinged up and scratched before it reached the dealership. Be it vandals, shipper carelessness, what have you. The dealer touched it up. The machine sold in advance because it was ordered and there was not one in the showroom of the dealership, hense the reason for ordering it. Did the dealership destroy the machines history because he had the bike sold in advance and had to make the repairs, in order to appease the buyer ?

[Chris Haynes]

Did the dealership destroy the machines history because he had the bike sold in advance and had to make the repairs, in order to appease the buyer ?

Yup. Just like dealers who custom paint and customize new bikes before they hit the showroom. Case in point. I have a friend who owns an original 1937 EL. He has the original sales receipt for the bike from Dudley Perkins H-D. It shows the bike was custom painted with a 1936 VL paint scheme and had 19" rims installed. So now this machine that has not been unmolested since it left the dealership can't get a Senior First because it has been modified by the dealer when it was new.

[indianut]

So now this machine that has not been unmolested since it left the dealership can't get a Senior First because it has been modified by the dealer when it was new.

I am not into Judging, but that's just WRONG!

[fillibuster]

Just occurred to me:
We need an "OUTLAW CLASS"!!!! for those outlaw grand-pappies!
probably a chapter provision, yeah, but for now?? until the nat'l finds a need and capacity for period preservations, or exhibit.

Sometimes we ask ourselves whether we're celebrating the machinery or the people, or both, and when and how one is more important than the other. But both sides are historically important, or they wouldn't be discussed with passion.

[Paps]

OK Chris......now let us leave the damage on the bike alone and fast forward to today. The owner takes his bike in to be judged. Without proof of said damage, as before it reached the dealership, will the bike be docked for the damage ? I know a little damage is acceptable but maybe the damage is much more considerable than scratches. Maybe the damage was done at the factory ? Maybe the factory will not admit to the damaging it ? Now we have no proof as to where the damage occured. Don't repair...get docked ?....repair.....get docked ?

[T. Cotten]

Sorry to butt back in but,
Let me see if I got this right,

Only factory production models are eligible for the Competition catagory, just like all other catagories.

But they have their own catagory,
because they have their own criteria?

Respectfully,

....Cotten

[redfred84]

Competition stuff

Hi Tom,
Yes, only factory racers can be currently judged with the established judging criteria; how it left the factory. Non-factory racers will abide by a different criteria; most likely that of how they were raced, in their time, under the rules of the sanctioning body of race style (AMA, or NHRA, or what ever). So yes, this would create a new catagory to say. Most other forms of altered bikes fit under the Period Modified Class.
It is difficult to include each and every form of bike, and it's modifications in the judging system. We are striving to preserve all of our machines histories, and recognize the contribution to the whole picture. For now, un-restored originals, and restored bikes are still judged under the "as they left the factory" criteria, Non-factory racers will have their day soon as previously described, and most other machines should fit under the Period modified class, although this isn't a Nationally Judged Class.
It is impossible to please all the people, all the time; but this format should serve to prolong our machines, and preserve their significance.

RF.

[longhorn]

Red Fred's explanation makes good common sence.

Ken Kalustian
#2065

[T. Cotten]

Red Fred's explanation makes good common sence.

Ken Kalustian
#2065

It's amazing how well a simple "Yes" or "No" can answer a question, but how rarely they are used.
Thanks again RF,

.....Cotten