Another judging question...

[Paps]

Several years back, at Davenport. I witnessed a couple of folks explaining to an owner what the judges were going to nail him on that his bike had incorrect. The owner spent the rest of that Saturday finding the correct parts from vendors at the meet. I thought it was rather nice of the folks to warn the owner. It gave the owner time to quickly correct his machine.

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Paps, yes we try to avoid 'pre-judging', but often you find first time entries where the engine/frame/numbers are fine, but numerous small hardware items are off. Getting over 90 or 95 points is then often dependent on a blizzard of quarter points on missing lockwashers, cadmium versus parkerized screws, incorrect bolts and so on. I don't have a problem in pointing these out to the owner on Saturday, if asked, so he can find a handful of hardware and do some wrenching at the meet. The system is trying to get restored bikes back to as they were built rather than show how clever (or not) the judges are on Sunday.

[Sargehere]

Tom,
You can tell your people to talk to our people, especially on judging. What exactly do you mean by this little subscription box?

RF

Fred, Tom's pointing out that he checks the box "subscribe to this thread" to those threads he plans to monopolize, and the forum software notifies him with an email every time anyone subsequently posts to it, calling him back here, to append another comment.

[fillibuster]

Fred, Tom's pointing out that he checks the box "subscribe to this thread" to those threads he plans to monopolize, and the forum software notifies him with an email every time anyone subsequently posts to it, calling him back here, to append another comment.

That's kinda like "trolling", but I don't see it as a "troll under the bridge", but as a fisherman trolling for what interests him. Perhaps I couldn't tolerate sitting in Cotten's boat all day with him (and he'd probably throw me overboard after an hour!), but I AM interested in where he casts his line. I'm trying to say, especially to you, Gerry, that I see gold in his posts, amidst much sand (admittedly), you just have to pan for it a little. Sometimes we have to do that with our closest fellow club members.

on topic, re Cotten's question: I think that Steve Dawdy said (in St Paul) that a previously over-looked item could be docked at a bike's next judging, but that a lower score would not result in a lower award, rather, the score sheet would say "no change". Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

[T. Cotten]

Folks,

RF will have found a prompt PM reply to his question, as it was off-topic, and RF and I have often communicated with each other off-forum.

After all, in this mudpit of pettiness,
Anything you say can, and will be, used against you.

And for some of us,... even what you do not say.

....Cotten

[panz4ever]

seems a lot of bikes are judged but there is little information shared and/or pics posted of these machines.

Think it would be helpful if folks were willing to share the information so that others do not make/repeat the same errors.

Palmers book is a good starting point but current knowledge and pics would definitely add to that base

[T. Cotten]

Panz4ever!

Can you blame the judged for not offering information, when their score is penalized?

With all due respect to Red Fred's veneration of altruistic enthusiasts, the nature of human egos painfully prevails.

I'm just glad I finally got a straight answer. Thanks to those who contributed in good faith!
You showed bravery against cyberbullying.

....Cotten

[redfred84]

There was talk of a book my Ed Youngblood of all the Winner's Circle bikes, but I don't know what ever happened to the idea. One thing I did learn whilst living in Alan Forbes' Indian Shop in Scotland was; Never trust a restored bike for reference. Of course, this was before our stringent AMCA judging. But Alan preferred to reference period literature, and usually the magazines of the time; Enthusiast & Indian News, for a more realistic view of how the machines actually were during their day.
I have seen plenty of knowledge sharing, and note comparing amongst the entrants, and the judges. Most of the people involved are all about learning more of their machine. Sharing the knowledge hasn't really been an issue, although, there are some who feel that the world owes them for their knowledge though. But all the judges & entrants I know are more than willing to discuss correctness, weather it's right or wrong!!!!!!!!!!!

Try it, you'll like it.
RF.

[Sargehere]

That's kinda like "trolling", but I don't see it as a "troll under the bridge", but as a fisherman trolling for what interests him. Perhaps I couldn't tolerate sitting in Cotten's boat all day with him (and he'd probably throw me overboard after an hour!), but I AM interested in where he casts his line. I'm trying to say, especially to you, Gerry, that I see gold in his posts, amidst much sand (admittedly), you just have to pan for it a little. Sometimes we have to do that with our closest fellow club members...

I'd be willing to bet that you'd probably get up and walk to shore in utter frustration, way sooner than that, Phil! I read most of Cotten's posts and see the sand in the bottom of the pan, interspersed with only iron pyrite, but that's just me, I'm sure.

[T. Cotten]

I'd be willing to bet that you'd probably get up and walk to shore in utter frustration, way sooner than that, Phil! I read most of Cotten's posts and see the sand in the bottom of the pan, interspersed with only iron pyrite, but that's just me, I'm sure.

Aw Please.
Anyone who has Panned in the Colorados knows that Pyrites Pre-knosticate Precious metals. They are all heavy, duh.

(You have to be there.)

BACK TO TOPIC almost:
Pretentious and Provocative Posts only Prevent Positive inPut, as Prepostorous and Pathetic Personal attacks only Perpetuate un-Palatable and Polarizing Political Postures.

Please ask yourselves;

What could Possibly be the Purpose of my question??

Please Ponder it if Possible, thanks.

.....Cotten

[T. Cotten]

You must be writing this crap for yourself Tom. I appreciate illtieration when it's done for everyone's amusement; but I suspect that's not the case here. You're a snob. You write this stuff to display your intellect and lord it over us morons. I've met a lot of people like you in my life, and you never realize how insulting your literary strutting is. . . Talk plain. If you hate me; spit it out. If you hate Rocky and the BOD; just say it. But most of all, tell us in plain English; why you harbor so much contempt for AMCA judging. I can understand Kevin and Robin being upset. They have every reason to be mad and they have said so in plain, clear language. No B.S., no fancy prose, just plain old English. I'll expect your smart-ass reply.

Obviously my last line was not Possible.

My mouth is full already without it stuffed with other's venom.

Of course I'm a snob!
That's what digging in other's garbage is all about!

...Cotten
PS: It's "alliteration". Sorry, but its true.
Google it if it helps....

[exeric]

I'm not at all comfortable with my previous post. I don't want to be mad at anyone in our club so I want to apologize to Tom for my comments. I know Tom has done a lot of good for people and he shares his knowledge willingly. Sorry for what I said Tom. I'll delete my post.

[Knotthed]

Everyone seems pretty edgey since "the big change" rolled out.

Here is my short thoughtful response to Cotten's:
If someone is having their machine judged for all the right reasons,
(Such as: to learn about their machine, and "correct" it...)

Q1)Shouldn't it be of advantage to History and the AMCA to alert the judges to what they missed?
A) YES

Q2)Or is it all about making a score?
A) Depends on everyone's own Ethics or "Moral Code"

Q3)Is the bottom line about information,.. or fooling the judges for a trophy?
A) Depends on everyone's own Ethics or "Moral Code"


Question # 1 sparks some intersting thoughts, and possibly a different mindset as to how the judging should work. What if you judged your own machine, then the judges reviewed your judging sheet versus the bike and graded it, making corrections. Let's face it - if you are entering a machine to be judged you most likely know what you are looking at. It would be kind of like a teacher gradeing a test. One's goal would be to get a high score on the test not so much as the actual score of the bike. Honorable intentions would be present instead of hoping they don't catch something and it should prove to be a great learning tool instead of just having the judges rip your hard earned work apart. Not to the judges fault - they are just doing what they are supposed to do - find mistakes! This approach would certainly change the atmosphere of judging dramtically.

Cheesy thought for the day......Pay it forward.
Before you type your next Forum Rage message, see if there is anyone's questions that you can help answer first.

Sometimes Cotten has been the only person to give an answer to my posts and I appreciate any and all feedback as I am just a Joe trying to draw from all of the Pro's experiences. There is always more than one way to skin a cat.

I'll take a moment here to thank everyone that has responded to any of my questions - Thanks.

[Chris Haynes]

I think Cotten may just be having some fun.

[T. Cotten]

I accept Eric's apology.

It disturbs me that he feels I harbor hatred for anyone.

It disturbs me most that so many read meanings into my words that are just not there.

Let us write carefully, and let us read carefully as well.

....Cotten