Another judging question...

[T. Cotten]

If someone is having their machine judged for all the right reasons,
(Such as: to learn about their machine, and "correct" it...)

Shouldn't it be of advantage to History and the AMCA to alert the judges to what they missed?

Or is it all about making a score?

Short thoughtful replies please,

....Cotten

[fabercycle]

Tom, You ever had a bike judged?.......me neither.

[T. Cotten]

Tom, You ever had a bike judged?.......me neither.

Tom!

I have answered this question twice on this forum: No, but my clients are judged often.

If you just don't care, then you are with the masses who do not either. And you are in good company!

My question was about basic AMCA judging itself:
Is the bottom line about information,..
or fooling the judges for a trophy?

....Cotten

[Chris Haynes]

The owner of the judged machines often show us the mistakes that have been made. Sometimes they are even right.

[jww]

Tom
I can only speak for one bike and the judging process it went thru.....my '29 JD.
1. Proof that the motor would run was required each time.
2. The bike was awarded Jr. First with 22 items noted as incorrect.
3. Upon returning home I prepared my documentation, contacted the leader of the team who judged the bike and he and I discussed ALL items which had been noted.
4. After discussion and presentation of documentation it was agreed that 11 of the 22 noted items where ACTUALLY CORRECT.
5. Next time out the bike (with documentation for 11 items) and corrected 11 items recieved its Senior.

In my experience, the judges were as interested in increasing their knowledge base as i was interested in making the bike as "correct" as possible.
I feel that my bike raised the bar at the time it went thru, and i am sure other '29 JD's have even raised it higher since. The knowledge base continues to increase.......if everything goes as it should with the judging system.

Not a short reply as requested, but i hope worth the time to read.

[Paps]

Tom
I can only speak for one bike and the judging process it went thru.....my '29 JD.
1. Proof that the motor would run was required each time.
2. The bike was awarded Jr. First with 22 items noted as incorrect.
3. Upon returning home I prepared my documentation, contacted the leader of the team who judged the bike and he and I discussed ALL items which had been noted.
4. After discussion and presentation of documentation it was agreed that 11 of the 22 noted items where ACTUALLY CORRECT.
5. Next time out the bike (with documentation for 11 items) and corrected 11 items recieved its Senior.

In my experience, the judges were as interested in increasing their knowledge base as i was interested in making the bike as "correct" as possible.
I feel that my bike raised the bar at the time it went thru, and i am sure other '29 JD's have even raised it higher since. The knowledge base continues to increase.......if everything goes as it should with the judging system.

Not a short reply as requested, but i hope worth the time to read.

I hold great admiration in your short reply. Sounded like the perfect senerio to me. Paps

[redfred84]

Thanks for your patience, and willingness to go over those items. I've already spent 3 hours this morning on the phone with restorers & consultants involved in the gorgeous Crocker we judged at Dixon this weekend. (and it's only 9:24 am here). A very controversial Marque, these Crockers, and very difficult to reference, however, both the judging, and the displaying parties are working diligently to get the facts straight so as to provide a future reference of these great machines.
I served as the lead Judge on this machine at it's last showing, but had the help of 2 other Crocker owners, and a fellow who was recently involved with the restoration of 2 others. I had also done some research on my own, as we had a heads-up with it's pre-registration. It has been a very, VERY constructive experience. Especially with all those involved being so patient and willing to share. We have an official appeals process just for such occasions, and we are setting up a data bank to avoid future miss-conceptions.
Together, with such dedicated input that we are enjoying with our members, we can strive to preserve the history these bike represent. I for one, fully appreciate the dedication & hard work that both the restorers/owners, and the Judges display for this outcome. To capture the correctness of the machine, as it left the factory for the dealer is a very difficult, and controversial process. But one I feel necessary to capture this for future generations to reference.
I applaud all the entrants who take the time & effort to re-store, and/or preserve their machines for this cause. It is thankless and exhausting job, but years from now, perhaps all our efforts will be worthwhile when the machine still exists to portray it's signifigance.

RF
AMCA #05
Nat'l Deputy Judge
SF, CA

[T. Cotten]

Okay,
Johnny outlines how the system works for correcting judge's mistakes, and Chris points out how many of the judged are often willing to remind the judges of faults they are not aware of..

If I may re-phrase my question:
Is there any "amnesty for honesty" on the spot, or will it get the machine docked anyway?

....Cotten

[Chris Haynes]

Okay,
Johnny outlines how the system works for correcting judge's mistakes, and Chris points out how many of the judged are often willing to remind the judges of faults they are not aware of..

If I may re-phrase my question:
Is there any "amnesty for honesty" on the spot, or will it get the machine docked anyway?

....Cotten

I had one owner question 3 or 4 items we thought were incorrect. I went to my factory photos and we were wrong about one of them. It was instantly corrected. Instead of earning a 97 he got a 97.25.

[T. Cotten]

Thanks again Chris,

But my original question is about what the judges miss, not what they think is wrong but isn't.

And about how the owners feel about bringing it up.

Many that I talk to just keep their mouths shut.
Who can blame them?


...Cotten

[redfred84]

I've witnessed many owners point out flaws, in-accuracies, and incorrect details of their own machines to judges. Most of the people I've witnessed at the judged & judging level in our AMCA are not the glitzy type looking for trophies & fame as some may speculate. Most seem to be striving for accurate representation of correctness for the machine, period. A lot of the guys will hunt, scavenge, and learn, then painstakingly build, restore, and preserve their masterpieces for this cause. Then, upon reaching a satisfactory goal or level of their efforts, they may choose to "retire" the machine from judging, and promptly start using it. That's what I do. My 99 3/4pt '47 Chief is now my loaner bike for visiters. They run pretty good when done up right!
Back to your insight though, I've seen a lot of displayers volunteer their in-accuracies. It's all about learning, and preserving.
RF
AMCA #05
Nat'l Deputy Judge
SF, CA.

[T. Cotten]

volunteered faults

I've witnessed many owners point out flaws, in-accuracies, and incorrect details of their own machines to judges. Most of the people I've witnessed at the judged & judging level in our AMCA are not the glitzy type looking for trophies & fame as some may speculate. Most seem to be striving for accurate representation of correctness for the machine, period. A lot of the guys will hunt, scavenge, and learn, then painstakingly build, restore, and preserve their masterpieces for this cause. Then, upon reaching a satisfactory goal or level of their efforts, they may choose to "retire" the machine from judging, and promptly start using it. That's what I do. My 99 3/4pt '47 Chief is now my loaner bike for visiters. They run pretty good when done up right!
Back to your insight though, I've seen a lot of displayers volunteer their in-accuracies. It's all about learning, and preserving.
RF
AMCA #05
Nat'l Deputy Judge
SF, CA.

RF!

So do they still get docked, or don't they?

....Cotten

[redfred84]

docked

Tom,
I'm amazed at the amount of time you have to monitor this, and various other lists. How do you get anything done?
As for an in-accuracy being pointed out by either the owner/displayer, or detected by a volunteer Judge, the machine still gets docked ( I call it dinged ). If something is wrong, then something is wrong. It's all about the machine.
RF.

[T. Cotten]

Docked

RF!

Thanks.
I can tell my people: yes.

...Cotten
PS: That little email thread subscription box works.

[redfred84]

Tom,
You can tell your people to talk to our people, especially on judging. What exactly do you mean by this little subscription box?

RF