Judging System Question?

[fillibuster]

qu Louie: "In the past there have been bikes judged close to 100 points that were ALL repop except the motor. That is just not right. "

Sorry Louie, your comment does not put the dead horse to rest, but extends the beating. I have agreement with your sentiment, however.

I think that the judges have enough work on their hands as it is, without adding to the chore. When Steve Dawdy says they're ready for more work, I'll be carrying Cotten's flag (if he'll let me).

[T. Cotten]

, I'll be carrying Cotten's flag (if he'll let me).

Are you nuts?

Anything attached to me personally is DOOMED.

I'm just a peevy little outsider-troublemaker stirring the pot.

Now is the time for some independent thought on everyone's part, before its too late and National awards mean little (or nothing) more than an Easyriders trophy.

I hope that idea isn't too novel.

....Cotten

[fillibuster]

Cotten, I think that you've won more allies to your way of thinking than you give yourself credit for. I would bet that many agreed with you more than we all are aware. It just took a few weeks for it to shake out.
Change will be slow, probably, but input should not be suppressed, and I don't believe that it will be, so long as our demeanor is as patient as those who say that they will listen to us.
If I were a Chief Judge, I would assess a few other difficulties as being more critical and timely than your/our interest, primarily, the volume of 70's bikes compared to our 50's and earlier bikes. What I saw in the St Paul judging circle was, I think, more 70's Japanese bikes than the sum of all others. ..( maybe they had it covered, but I'm glad it wasn't my problem to provide for that.) The better they handle this, the sooner they'll entertain our ideas, so good luck to them.

[T. Cotten]

Phil!

I don't expect anyone to rally to my radical/reactionary rant.
Its too uncomfortable.

I only hope that some of you think about it.

Somebody has to have a better idea.
After all, as Paquette pointed out: "..this subject of judging needs some serious reconsideration."


....Cotten

[c.o.]

Because its totally un-judgeable!

Chapters should be able to conjure any vanity trophy they want.

But National awards should really mean something.

....Cotten

That is it in a nut shell.


You've promoted some thought alright Cotten. Change is iminent but it should be done carefully.

[rbenash]

Phil!

I don't expect anyone to rally to my radical/reactionary rant.
Its too uncomfortable.

I only hope that some of you think about it.

Somebody has to have a better idea.
After all, as Paquette pointed out: "..this subject of judging needs some serious reconsideration."


....Cotten

Definitely thinking about it - ever since I bought my father's '65 pan 10 years ago. Followed this thread with great interest. Cotton, Eric, Portagepen, Chirs's commentary aligns with what I've been trying to accommodate or understand the National rules and how they have directly impacted my project. There definitely is a need for a category between unrestored and "off the factory floor" restoration class. There's a huge gap IMHO that requires another class in the middle that requires that things are correct, yes but doesn't require EVERYTHING on the bike to be restored. Maybe a "Refurbuished" class?

[exeric]

Ray, I can see your situation but I think a class like you describe would just muddy the judging waters. I'll cite my example and leave it at that. I have a 1948FL that I have been building for fun. I started this project to reconnect with the fun of building a bike and of course, panheads are easy to do and easy to find parts for. This bike started as a pair of gas tanks hanging from the rafters in my shop and that was the jumping off point that committed me to the project. My goal, from the get go was to have fun and not get mired in the obscession to find perfect, genuine parts. I do that with my early bikes but this bike is suppose to be fun. I have been very fortunate to find lots of great condition, genuine parts for the '48 but I have had no qualms about using a repro dash base, wiring, muffler, headlight, and fender light, and lots of little things are just easier to get out of a catalog. This bike has also been a great place to use nice old parts that have been collecting dust but fall into that catagory of too nice to restore; hence the tail-light has light pitting in the chrome, the footboard mats show slight wear, and the speedo is nice but worn. Getting back to the point of this letter is; not every bike needs to be judged, or should be judged to AMCA standards. Some bikes should just be enjoyed; which gets back to the question of what do you want to do with your bike? If you're serious about getting it judged, then be prepared for an expensive, long ordeal that turns the bike into a static piece of art. You will be stunned by the scrutiny of the AMCA judges of 30s and post war H-Ds and Indians. Very little gets by them, and again; at the end of the day, you have a little trophy and a piece of art that your wife won't let you keep in the living room. My thinking now is; if someone has an interest in AMCA judging, they should get involved with the process, and go through the ordeal of putting a bike through. I also believe that the standards must be high so that AMCA recognition means something. Bikes like my '48 should be welcomed and maybe displayed, but I don't think it has a place in AMCA judging. In reality, this has been the case for as long as I have been in the AMCA. At every meet I have been to, there have been fantastic bikes on display throughout the grounds and parking lots. Some bikes are in the process of being built, some are funky old riders, and some are Frankenstein's love children. Regardless, I've taken more pictures of bikes like the aforementioned than I have of bikes on the judging floor. There is a huge interest in such bikes and I don't think that AMCA judging has to be the fate of every antique motorcycle.

[Robin-M]

To all,

Most of the comments that I'm reading are because you all have limited knowledge on the judging system and the way it used to run before this year. We judged bikes as unrestored originals AND restored originals. The judges must and have used common sense in the judging. Like I said earlier, most of our better judges and marque experts are not judging right now. There's always room for improvement, which we were constantly making small changes. As I'm sure you're aware, and I hate to keep repeating, but I've dedicated 35 plus years of my life and motorcycle knowledge and experience to the AMCA membership through the judging system. But then to be thrown out by the president of the AMCA, who has ALWAYS hated the judging system, why he threw Kevin and I out, I'm still trying to figure out. The biggest problems I see with our AMCA and the judging system is to allow or have in charge the new AMCA chief judge that I handed him his judging card at the awards ceremony in Davenport 2009. And to have a new judging committee formed in October of last year by a national senior judge and board member, without the knowledge of the then Chief Judge Kevin. This board member, which I heard is a retired board member from BP, had personal compplaints about our judging system, so instead of coming to Kevin and myself, he decided to run the judging himself. Which he is now doing with his new judging taskforce. He's taking it upon himself to start this new judging committee, to rewrite the judging handbook and to rewrite the judging rules. In case you didn't know, he's also rewriting our club bylaws and policies-and-procedures. I guess he's being allowed to do this because no one else on the board wants to volunteer to do it or to stop him from doing it. I feel that the AMCA is in trouble and our judging system, if not attended to soon, will be disgraced in the judging world. We had the best motorcycle judging in the world, now under the new regime, we can't even judge competition bikes (because I was told they don't know how, after I gave them a written indepth explaination on how we judge them).

You're right if you feel I'm taking this personal. There are very few people alive today that have dedicated as much time and knowledge for the benefit of our membership and our club. But I'm not only concerned about the personal aspect, I'm concerned about the whole institution of the AMCA judging system, being degraded by those in charge lacking people skills, knowledge, experience and common sense.

Like I said earlier, this comes from my years of dedication to the club and is my opinion. Hopefully if we can bring the judging system back to what it should be, I sure hope that I can involve those on this forum that are speaking your mind so you can see how things should be done and have been done in the past.

Robin

[T. Cotten]

Folks,

If I may return to just the judging quandry for a minute,

If the purpose of judging is to "correct" machines,
how do you "correct" an original machine? Would it not be an alteration?
How do you "correct" a competition machine?
If it was Granpa's wildcat hillclimber, would you even want to?

Simpler is better than more complicated.
So why not combine un-restored, competition, and honestly ridden-and-maintained machines into one preservation perspective. All have aspects that must NOT be changed for no other reason than to fit 'restored' criteria.

If I were not an out-sider,
I would propose this inclusive catagory to be called "Conservation" class, to compliment the "Restoration" class.

Instead of "by-the-book correct" concours conformity, they would be judged for authenticity. Its either historical, or it ain't.

...Cotten

[speedracer]

Bikerdds!

Which brings up the question:
How do you "correct" an original un-restored machine?
Or a competition machine? (If it was Granpa's wildcat hillclimber, why even try?)

Cotton
don't worry about Grandpa's wildcat hillclimber!!
they still do not have a way to judge them. at Oley they "made an exception" and judged a competition bike the old way, and at Rhinebeck they refused to judge a competition bike that is already a Senior, told the owner to bring it to Davenport, after he had already hauled the bike from a great distance.

[Sargehere]

how do you "correct" an original machine? Would it not be an alteration?

You're still suffering from the delusion that (almost) every bike can somehow aspire to a national award, Tom. Original paint bikes are those rare birds that haven't been modified in their long lives. They can wear new tires, rubbers, things listed in the rules that normally wear out, but they lose points for repainted and replaced parts. C'est la vie!
There is a class with rules for "unrestored, original paint." If the bike no longer qualifies for that, the owner can go for the chapter awards, which should take that area into consideration, or restore it correctly, if there's enough left for that. I think you've found the tipping point.
It's just that not every old bike that can be brought to a national is going to qualify to take home some prize, Tom, or we might as well hand out trophies at the registration desk when you sign in. Now, that wouldn't cheapen the prestige of AMCA national awards, would it?
You've hit on the fact that the sponsoring chapters need to pick up a lot of the slack with the "funny prizes:" the "most rust," and all of that, if the objective is to increase interest and participation to keep the AMCA going through the coming Japanese invasion. But "No one promised you a rose garden," eh?

[T. Cotten]

You're still suffering from the delusion that (almost) every bike can somehow aspire to a national award, Tom.

I didn't know you were a psychologist!

Just what symptom led you to the conclusion that I was suffering from this delusion?
Where did I assert that every machine must be judgeable by National standards?
I pointed out that I personally shall probably never own a judgeable machine!

So don't put words in my mouth. It ain't hygenic.

Its your silly system that is sick.
Just who is too deluded by pride to realize it?

....Cotten

[Sargehere]

Just what symptom led you to the conclusion that I was suffering from this delusion?

Maybe:

"I'm just a peevy little outsider-troublemaker stirring the pot."

(YOU'RE about as "outsider" as I yam, Tom, making your living having parts on almost every bike in the club), and:

"So why not combine un-restored, competition, and honestly ridden-and-maintained machines into one preservation perspective. All have aspects that must NOT be changed for no other reason than to fit 'restored' criteria.
If I were not an out-sider, I would propose this inclusive catagory to be called "Conservation" class, to compliment the "Restoration" class."'

That could be almost every bike that could be hauled in to a meet!

I like it the way it is. Restoration means as it went down the assembly line the first time. It's not for everyone, or every bike, but an ideal to be pursued (the fun part) and possibly, but not assuredly, achieved, by a few. "C'est la vie!"
It's also not the whole reason for being for the whole club. Most of us have more fun enjoying the camaraderie and riding our old bikes, and looking at the progress of those pursuing the closest thing to perfection that we can conjure up. The enjoyment is obviously in the pursuit, for many; the achievement for the few.
Once achieved, completed bikes are often sold to highest bidders, who apparently get their satisfaction from owning and looking at their own and others' handiwork, and dreaming their own dreams, and the builders proceed to their next project.
It is a system that works fine, but a few feel the need to try to bend opinions of the many to their tiny way of thinking, and just end up making a lot of static. Not you, personally, Tom, just a few.

[T. Cotten]

Wow what logic.
Does anybody want this guy judging their machine?

Meanwhile,
Speedracer reported:
"at Rhinebeck they refused to judge a competition bike that is already a Senior, told the owner to bring it to Davenport, after he had already hauled the bike from a great distance."

Somehow I got the notion years ago that judging was a service.
Is it now only a privilege for those who can afford to bounce around the continent, and cozy up to the new good ol' boys club.

How much do awards go for now?

....Cotten

[Chris Haynes]

What about the teens or pre teens bike that got repainted when it was 10 years old? Say everything else on the bike is original what happens to it? There should be a catagory for "Preserved" motorcycles.