Judging clarifications

[exeric]

Its all so clear now.

The end of an era.

Google search shall soon be the only trustworthy authority.

....Cotten

If you're talking about the era of bitching and moaning, crying and whining; then good riddance.

[Robin-M]

Sarge, that's your opinion. And I'm sure there are a FEW others with the same opinion. That's NOT the opinion of the hundreds of members and judges that have approached me on this subject. As I stated before, I'm involved in the AMCA all the time, not just sitting behind a keyboard. When you put as much time into the AMCA as I did and do then you can criticize me with meaningful comments. I still help and answer all questions on people's motorcycles that I'm a marque expert on. I have helped more people than you can imagine. I don't feel that I should stand by and let several unknowledgable apprentices ruin a perfectly good working judging system. Notice how the other people are even posting about the newbie judges that are judging now. Why weren't you judging at Rhinebeck? You seem to be good at throwing stones at me. I can back up my years of judging. ALL the years of judging at almost every meet up until Eustis of this year.

The hundreds of people that I've spoke with don't consider my facts about what happened as sour grapes. They think that I was treated very unfairly to say the least. You seem to be getting your information from someone in the new judging regime, I guess that's why you don't have a very high opinion of me. Again that's your opinion and the opinion of few. As I stated earlier, I have not quit judging and I have not quit helping the membership. You forget, or maybe you never knew, I work on motorcycles every day, I'm on the phone with people every day, I'm on email with people every day and I share my motorcycle knowledge whenever I can.

Robin

[T. Cotten]

If you're talking about the era of bitching and moaning, crying and whining; then good riddance.

So,
You feel that we are better off with no valid judging system at all?

...Cotten

[exeric]

So,
You feel that we are better off with no valid judging system at all?

...Cotten

We do have a valid judging system that IS working because of the dedication of volunteers who believe in it.

[Robin-M]

Eric,

Really. That's why there's a handful of judges that are judging rather than the 40+ that we normally had before. I guess that's why they're announcing on the pa system that they need judges. I guess that's why there were people judging that haven't been certified and do not have a judging card. I guess that's why there was 50 bikes at Rhinebeck this year instead of over 100 like last year and 98 the previous year. Yep....I guess it's working fine.

Robin

[exeric]

Eric,

Really. That's why there's a handful of judges that are judging rather than the 40+ that we normally had before. I guess that's why they're announcing on the pa system that they need judges. I guess that's why there were people judging that haven't been certified and do not have a judging card. I guess that's why there was 50 bikes at Rhinebeck this year instead of over 100 like last year and 98 the previous year. Yep....I guess it's working fine.

Robin

Yeah Robin, I'll bet you had a ball watching them struggle.

[Robin-M]

No, it's actually sad and disheartening. It's so hard to see what I spent so many years building and trying to make it the best, most prestigious motorcycle judging in the world being destroyed.

[Sargehere]

Sarge, that's your opinion. And I'm sure there are a FEW others with the same opinion. That's NOT the opinion of the hundreds of members and judges that have approached me on this subject. As I stated before, I'm involved in the AMCA all the time, not just sitting behind a keyboard. When you put as much time into the AMCA as I did and do then you can criticize me with meaningful comments.

I can criticize you with my eyes shut, Robin. You have whined about your ousting from the Assistant Chief Judgeship for five months. I also recognize that you were wronged by an insensitive BoD, and you had (had), my condolences but time marches on. You didn't know when to quit.
You have become the main enemy to progress on the judging front, with your incessant whining and complaining, and nowhere, NO WHERE near to being a contributor to its amicable resolution. Thanks IN NO SMALL PART to you, I'd say Bob McClean, Doc Patt and Peter Heintz are all rolling in their graves. Remember them? They ran the club with amity and good humor, smoothing over innumerable petty disagreements with their gentle personalities, for decades; the exact opposite of fanning petty fires, trying to make conflagrations from matchbooks, "because their feelings got hurt." Think about how they would respond to the here and now in the club that they dedicated their lives to building to become the premier antique motorcycle club in the world, and what they would make of your churlish, childish behavior now, and you'll be ashamed of yourself, Robin. If you have it in you.

I still help and answer all questions on people's motorcycles that I'm a marque expert on. I have helped more people than you can imagine. I don't feel that I should stand by and let several unknowledgable apprentices ruin a perfectly good working judging system. Notice how the other people are even posting about the newbie judges that are judging now. Why weren't you judging at Rhinebeck?

Actually, my wife and I were in Louisville, Ky. last weekend, at a family function, a memorial service for her late mother; takes precedence, you know? or we'd have been in New York. And Ol' Tex simply broke, 503 miles from home, on our way to Denton, NC, and a hundred+ miles short of our goal, but thanks for axin'.

You seem to be good at throwing stones at me. I can back up my years of judging. ALL the years of judging at almost every meet up until Eustis of this year.

Where you started your boycott and established your victimhood. However, it's run its course, Robin.

The hundreds of people that I've spoken with don't consider my facts about what happened as sour grapes.

Then they're different hundreds, I guess, from the hundreds I've spoken to. You are the main problem in their opinions. You've been whining for five months, now. So, what have you accomplished? You've whined about your treatment and think that you've created a dichotomy, a schism of the club, to where some of the average members think there may really be something to this tempest-in-a-teapot you've fanned the flames under to your utmost. But it's nothing, Robin, really, nothing.
The Antique Motorcycle Club is bigger than you or me or anyone or one group of people. Give it up, and let the enjoyment and camaradarie come back, instead of doing your damndest to remind everyone every day in your almost every post to this forum, on the phone and in emails, of how much you did for the club and how you were wronged and that the new people in your old offices are know-nothing apprentices unworthy to lick your motorcycle boots. We're tired of it, Robin. The real, vast majority, are just tired of it, and I'm a committee of one, come here to finally tell you the truth and try to get you to quit. You and I are just little wheels in a big machine, Robin. None of us would be missed for long. No one is.
Actually, the vast majority of AMCA members are sick of it, Robin. I think it's time for you to either learn to shut up and get along in the AMCA, and maybe salvage your hare-earned reputation, or go "found" your own, establish an entirely new antique motorcycle club; judge it any way you want, and we'll see how many AMCA members decide to put up or shut up with you, in charge of your own club. Go on. That's what people do when they've worn out their welcome. "If you can't be part of the solution, then you're part of the problem," was never a truer statement than what I'm talking about here, right now.

They think that I was treated very unfairly to say the least. You seem to be getting your information from someone in the new judging regime, I guess that's why you don't have a very high opinion of me.

No, I've known you thirty years, and I don't have a very high opinion of you now, (but that could still change) based on the way you've conducted yourself for the five calendar months since Eustis, Robin. Up until then i highly respected you, having known you all that time, tho you pretended not to remember me, even then. You remember me now?

Again that's your opinion and the opinion of few. As I stated earlier, I have not quit judging and I have not quit helping the membership. You forget, or maybe you never knew, I work on motorcycles every day, I'm on the phone with people every day, I'm on email with people every day and I share my motorcycle knowledge whenever I can.
Robin

Loading it on, aren't you? Everyone's familiar with your father's Indian shop in Pa. And you're using you contacts to the utmost to help to stir up your venomous poison undermining the AMCA to the best of your ability. Everyone can see that, too.

Here's a quote for you to chew on, Robin, it's one I received, one of many, from someone who's name you would immediately recognize; and no one new to the club or the judging regime:

"Gerry,
I get a real kick out of your posts.
You got a good "take" on what's going on with this judging debacle. Funny how all the emotional outpouring of Robin has actually gotten a few people to "get up in arms" about all this. He should have stopped while he was ahead though. His constant hammering on this thing has evidenced a personality flaw that I can see makes him the wrong guy to work with other people in the judging committee, or BOD. It's all become so counterproductive.
These forums are a real hang-out for mal-contents, and it gets unnerving.
It's funny how many people make up their minds about something, based on stuff they have no firsthand knowledge of. I think you're the first guy who really posted a "real-world" view of the whole situation.....it's all become so tiring!"

Face it, Robin, you are dedicated not to helping to solve the problem, but using your position, contacts, experience and former office to do your damndest to undermine what and who replaced you. Grow up, and you might redeem yourself. But, better yet, take my advice form your own antique motorcycle club and leave the AMCA alone, why don't you? We have grown past your ruffled feathers and are tired of your whining about the past.
I'll personally look forward to the flyers for your new club.

[Tommo]

Is this sort of tirade really called for, by all means discuss the subject but please keep name calling and character assassination out of it.

[Sargehere]

Is this sort of tirade really called for, by all means discuss the subject but please keep name calling and character assassination out of it.

This is no tirade, Tommo, and I do urge you to tread carefully, and do your homework, before making any ill-considered declarations about who is doing the name-calling and the character assassinating here. First, I urge you to re-read the posts of Robin Markey in this forum, since February, when he was let go as assistant chief judge. Administrative decisions were made at the highest level in the club at the Eustis Winter Meet, Jan. 28-Feb. 2, and since that time, he has only done his utmost to interfere with, dismiss, and diminish any and all the attempts of the remaining AMCA officers to administer this club at his every opportunity, and to turn the membership against their attempts to modernize the AMCA's judging system. All because "his feelings were hurt" and he was canned. A regrettable situation, but a bigger man would have dealt with it maturely.

I also call your attention to his comments in this very thread, above, where he called today's appointed National AMCA Judging officials "this mickey mouse regime" (yesterday at 8:40 am) and the National Chief and Assistant Chief Judges, who replaced him, "unknowledgeable apprentices" (at 9:12 am).
My carefully measured words above are not the ravings of a loose cannon, but you might want to examine his utterances a little more closely. I have watched him lashing out like a spoiled child since February, and not working for the good of the club with his name calling and sarcasm, but just the opposite, trying his best turn to back the clock, and to rend the AMCA into two polar camps.

When he tried to deny my worthiness to question his disruptive sewing of chaos in the club, he broke the camel's back, as far as I am concerned. I've been a member of the club since 1972, and known him for over thirty years, and judged under Doc Patt, Peter Heintz and Kevin Valentine, and I have as much right as any other dues-paying member of the Antique Motorcycle Club to express myself on this forum. That's when my patience was exhausted. The gloves are off. He gets no quarter from me, nor any more sympathy for how he was discharged at Eustis. I am not alone in the club in recognizing that the biggest problem we have with instituting the changes to judging is his vocal opposition based on his juvenile attitude toward his successors.

Tread here very carefully, Tommo. I have PMs and emails from club members who agree with me that the source of the problem isn't the new guys, but the one whose time has come, and passed. They and I can't stand that he takes full advantage of his every opportunity to diminish the hard work of the people now in charge, basically because he was fired. Speaking of the present situation, it takes a lot to rile me up, but you poke me enough times, and aim your childish taunts towards me, and you get both barrels.

[exeric]

Tommo, I agree with Gerry. I felt bad for Robin too when all of this first went down; but like Gerry said, Robin had the chance to show good character and leadership qualities by rolling up his sleeves and helping with the transition. Robin has so much to contribute but he's picked a different path.

[Robin-M]

You're right, the founding fathers are rolling in their graves, from the mis-use of power of those at the top AND what has happened to the judging.

The hundred of people that I've spoken with about this have either contacted me or come up to me at meets and wanted to know what happened.

I will continue to participate in this forum to correct the false statements being made.

You keep saying that I am taking this so personal and that I am wrong in that I should bow down and help the people that attacked me and fired me. So in other words what you're saying, when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, the United States should have bowed down and left them take over and we should not have fought back.

As I said earlier, this is your opinion, which you have a right to. This is the United States of American and I have a right to my opinion also, the same as a right of freedom of speech.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do and I'm sorry to hear of your wife's mother's passing.

We'll see what happens after Davenport's board meeting and elections.

Robin
PS - Eustis was 3-1/2 months ago, not 5 months ago

[Sargehere]

The only false statements being made, Robin, are yours. You've burned up the phone lines trying to get your "side" to this to be accepted by people who, like me, formerly respected you highly, if for nothing else, your Indian knowledge.
There's nothing intrinsically wrong with the judging changes approved by the AMCA Board of Directors at Eustis by their 9 to 1 votes, almost down the line. That should tell everyone who's crying sour grapes here.

I haven't witnessed anyone attack you, until you piped up and sought all the sympathy you could attract, to help you to undermine the vested authority of the club at the highest level, because you were fired without the least notice. You had hitched your wagon to Kevin, and he walked out of the board meeting. The BoD should have at least notified you of your status at Eustis in January (Feb, Mar, Apr, May, and this is June: That's five months on my calendar) but you've now ranted against many of the changes that you previously supported, basically, because you're not the one in charge. Infantile tantrums don't go down well among mature people, Robin.

Chief Judge Steve Dawdy is a calm and patient man. Like you, I've met and spoken to him. I've also heard the same from everyone else who's met him. I am convinced that the club has the right man in the position, in the aftermath of what went down in the Eustis BoD meeting. Maturity and common sense will prevail consistently over shrillness, name-calling and sarcasm, so I'm not worried about the direction AMCA judging will take. This is a transition year, and rough spots will appear, but you have only opportunistically seized on every straw you could to dismiss the present leadership as "unknowledgeable apprentices" in the present "mickey mouse regime." Your words, yesterday, Robin (even if your 9:12 am post has now magically disappeared in the last few hours.) The club does have a problem, but it's going to be fixed. By God, Robin, it's going to be fixed.

If present marque experts are, as you gleefully report, refraining from contributing their services in judging at the national meets, the people now coming on and learning the ropes will soon gain enough experience to replace them completely, and the former marque experts will also be left in the dustbin of history. No one is that valuable.
Remember the 1982 PATCO air traffic controllers' union strike? I'm reminded of that in this instance. They thought they were irreplaceable and their skills were irreplaceable. Yeah. There are plenty of people willing to learn to judge, and the club will go on, Robin, with or without you.

[Robin-M]

The only false statements being made, Robin, are yours. You've burned up the phone lines trying to get your "side" to this to be accepted by people who, like me, formerly respected you highly, if for nothing else, your Indian knowledge.
There's nothing intrinsically wrong with the judging changes approved by the AMCA Board of Directors at Eustis by their 9 to 1 votes, almost down the line. That should tell everyone who's crying sour grapes here.

I haven't witnessed anyone attack you, until you piped up and sought all the sympathy you could attract, to help you to undermine the vested authority of the club at the highest level, because you were fired without the least notice. You had hitched your wagon to Kevin, and he walked out of the board meeting. The BoD should have at least notified you of your status at Eustis in January (Feb, Mar, Apr, May, and this is June: That's five months on my calendar) but you've now ranted against many of the changes that you previously supported, basically, because you're not the one in charge. Infantile tantrums don't go down well among mature people, Robin.

Chief Judge Steve Dawdy is a calm and patient man. Like you, I've met and spoken to him. I've also heard the same from everyone else who's met him. I am convinced that the club has the right man in the position, in the aftermath of what went down in the Eustis BoD meeting. Maturity and common sense will prevail consistently over shrillness, name-calling and sarcasm, so I'm not worried about the direction AMCA judging will take. This is a transition year, and rough spots will appear, but you have only opportunistically seized on every straw you could to dismiss the present leadership as "unknowledgeable apprentices" in the present "mickey mouse regime." Your words, yesterday, Robin (even if your 9:12 am post has now magically disappeared in the last few hours.) The club does have a problem, but it's going to be fixed. By God, Robin, it's going to be fixed.

If present marque experts are, as you gleefully report, refraining from contributing their services in judging at the national meets, the people now coming on and learning the ropes will soon gain enough experience to replace them completely, and the former marque experts will also be left in the dustbin of history. No one is that valuable.
Remember the 1982 PATCO air traffic controllers' union strike? I'm reminded of that in this instance. They thought they were irreplaceable and their skills were irreplaceable. Yeah. There are plenty of people willing to learn to judge, and the club will go on, Robin, with or without you.

Gerry,

I am not going to waste my time conversing with you any longer. You don't listen or understand what I say. I'm not sure what the problem is. I will not answer this thread any more because you have proven what I've said and what I've been saying.

The Eustis meet was the end of February. This is now the middle of June. That's not 5 months. I'm glad that top judges and marque experts are so easily replaced in your mind. What takes a lot of people most of their lifetime to achieve...you're stating this can be done in less than a year. I'm glad you feel you know all the answers.

You state that he's a calm and patient man because you spoke with him and made an opinion. I've talked with him and dealt with him and I've formed my opinion.

I'm off this thread....go for it Gerry....say anything you want to say. Just remember, you've only judged a couple of times in the last 20 years, so you won't be speaking from experience. It's easy to stand on the sidelines and make comments.

Robin

[T. Cotten]

I must agree with Robin on one point:
There is far more typing than listening going on!

Only one thing can sustain an over-complicated, un-accessible, and irrelevant judging system: apathy.

There will always be plenty of that.

....Cotten