AMCA Judging Program

[redfred84]

re-pop bikes

Hey Joe,
Don't sell yourself short on the repro bikes here. As long as it's old enough, there is a place for it amongst us all. Yes, one of the main functions of the AMCA judging is to preserve an example of machine for future reference. After all, we must have an acurate speciman to look back on! In this catagory, we are dealing with thoroughbreds.
Thankfully Kevin Valentine, an old East Coast guy, saw to it that period modifieds are recognized amongst our ranks. Period Modifieds are some of the heart & soul of what we do. So are original Paint artifacts, and so are Knucklehead engines in brand new frames.
Newbie BOD member Matt Olsen is all over the later version. Look forward to these refreshing, hot rod, versions of our machinery to gain some form of official recognition via the club soon. I'm not speaking for the BOD ( the lawyers won't let me ) here, but I feel ya, and these exciting new specimans of our culture will/ are being acknowledged as we speak.
Dunno about the Sportys though, have you ever considered a Sport Scout? Just had to throw that one in for Chris Haynes!
Good point Joe, and I feel ya on this one. I'm kinda thinking of installing a Chief engine in a V-Strome frame myself. One must have a bike for every mood.
Good on ya, RF.

[Tommo]

Red Fred
Are you saying that the Board has been silenced by legal advice and lawyers have instructed board members not to inform the general membership of the issues that affect the running of this club.

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Tommo, I believe Red Fred was joking, which often does not work well in Emails.

On other items mentioned, we used to allow repro frames under the 'best available repro' rule, but now consider them a key part of the bike so they take a points hit if not original.

We're also seeing an arms race between the fakers and the restorers/collectors, with repro crankcases and number stamps now becoming widely available. Remember these bikes are not 35 years old, so not eligible for judging, but we have categories for display, period modified, most unique, or even longest distance driven which should satisfy you trophy hounds. There is a big incentive to doctor up a $9,000 Timeless and put it in for judging as a $90,000 1910 Harley, but please try and contain yourself as our marque specialists will know the difference. Remember our Club mission is about preserving motorcycling history and not authenticating replicas. Having said that, we all enjoy seeing the workmanship of our members, and some historic bikes exist only as replicas. Please bring them along so we can all enjoy them, just don't put them in for judging.

On parts bikes, we still allow bikes built from parts to be judged, but only in the restored category as far as I know, and of course the parts have to be correct for the year.

[Lonnie]

Parts is parts is parts

A bike built from parts, so to speak, is what many of the bikes competing at the higher ranks in the Restored Class are comprised of. After all, every bike started off as parts, correct. So, please, guys, do not look down on bikes built from parts.

On a personal level, I picked up a mixed-up knucklehead, broke it down, bought parts, paid dearly and now have two knuckleheads, one a restored '41EL and the other a restoration-quality '47EL. The '41 is fully capable of being a Restored WC bike, of that I have no doubt, Larry Gee did a fine job. However, I will not submit it to the judging process based on my past experiences with supposedly knowledgeable judges who were not.

My '48 was DQ'ed at a meet for wrong frame, which I only found out at the awards ceremony (that was prior to us owners being allowed on field). A bit irate, I collared Kevin and the Chief Chapter judge and instructed them on the error. I was right, knew I was right and they agreed. I got my award.

I cannot count the number of times that I and other owners have had an item noted as incorrect at a meet, correct the issue for the next meet only to be told that the correction is incorrect and being informed that the way it was at the first meet is correct!

I have personally witnessed judges going back and forth between basically identical bikes trying to make a determination of what is correct. "This is correct!" "No, this one is correct!" What a fiasco!

I have personally witnessed judges spending an inordinate amount of time on one bike, in one case over half an hour, and only a brief amount of time on another very similar bike because "I know this bike".

None of these issues were Kevin's or Robin's fault, they are just factors of human nature and are (were) beyond their control. Changing the Chief and Assistant Chief will not fix it.

Now, we have to deal with some person or persons who think they know it all not only visually checking the authenticity of the engine and frame but now being tasked with verifying the correct font and appearance of the VIN! And checking that the casting hallmarks are correct, knowing as we do that there are variances in these hallmarks in otherwise identical frames as the design carried over from year to year! Crikey!

On top of this unprecedented attention to the bikes being judged, we have yet another scenario being ignored, which is the virtually undetectable fabrication of "Original" (Unrestored) bikes, built from parts (told you they are all parts) and being passed of as "original paint bikes". I've seen it done, all you need is an original paint sheetmetal set (or a good painter who know his stuff), stir in a few (or a lot of) parts out of the back room or auto jumble (swapmeet to us US dudes) and viola! Instant original unrestored bike!

There is no amount of information out there for all the makes now being judged nor are there enough qualified judges at any one meet, with Davenport being the possible exception for some of the makes, to adequately determine the authenticity of all the components on all bikes on the field. Period.

[Sportster Jerry]

I can understand not allowing a repop frame as the "best available reproduction" due to it being an integral part of the bike, but what about cylinders? How are they considered an integral part of the bike? They are a wear item, and a 6 point deductions seems excessive. In my opinion, engine cases and frame are the only "essential" parts of the bike.

I've said it in another post and I'll say it again....I feel like the new changes are going to frustrate and intimidate new members or members who have never had a bike judged. Restoring old bikes is a hobby and judging should be fun. But this is the first year in 5 years that my Dad and I have decided not to have our bikes on the judging field at Oley and that is a bummer.

Winners' Circle should stay Winners' Cirlce, and if the AMCA wants to elevate their standards they should add a new national award above W.C.

[redfred84]

lawyers

Red Fred
Are you saying that the Board has been silenced by legal advice and lawyers have instructed board members not to inform the general membership of the issues that affect the running of this club.

No Tommo, not at all. I was just giving a dig to the Lawyer types.
PS. Are you the NZ Tommo I contacted in regards to the HD Peashooter stuff?

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Lonnie, I've also bought a running 1931 V motor in a 1936 VL frame and made it back into two restored bikes. Like you say, all restored bikes are built out of parts.

The building of 'original' bikes out of parts is indeed a conundrum, and I've heard of Flying Merkels being built out of nos and possibly used parts. If the judges can't tell then they can't deduct points, but our marque specialists seem pretty good on detecting patinated paintwork, and make appropriate deductions.

The freshened-up judging system is not meant to be intimidating to owners, unless you're trying to put in a bike with mostly repro parts and/or bad numbers. We still have the 25 categories, the 4 points per category, the same awards cut-offs, and similar deductions for similar faults. The average Club owner should see very little change in the judging system, so don't hold back on entering your bikes.

The problems about lack of knowledge of the judges, and inconsistent points deductions, have been with us since Day 1. We're amateurs and humans, and make mistakes. There are plans to write more detailed guidance notes for each of the 25 categories, which should help to educate judges and improve consistency, but this is not a five minute job. Remember we now allow owners to sign up as apprentices and observe the team judging their bike, and this has helped a lot in having owners understand the system.

[Sportster Jerry]

Having repro cylinders is not "mostly repro parts," yet will keep someone from ever earning a Senior award. I would find that to be frustrating if it were my bike.

[bmh]

Are not cylinders wear items? Much like tires, leather, headlamp bulbs and the like? Some allowances need made for certain things. These are the definitions of restore I would say apply to our hobby;

re·store   /rɪˈstɔr, -ˈstoʊr/ Show Spelled[ri-stawr, -stohr] Show IPA
–verb (used with object),-stored, -stor·ing.

2.to bring back to a former, original, or normal condition, as a building, statue, or painting.

3.to bring back to a state of health, soundness, or vigor.

6.to reproduce or reconstruct (an ancient building, extinct animal, etc.) in the original state.

Note the last one. Would seem that reproduced items are exactly what restoration is about at times. Or should I start selling off my projects while they are still worth close to what I have invested?

[speedracer]

Competition modified (nonfactory, period) race motorcycles will be judged in a separate class with rules and awards unique to the class. The protocol for judging these important motorcycles is under development. Competition motorcycles restored to factory specifications will continue to be judged within their regular class as defined by year of manufacture.

Steve
does this mean I may as well leave all my competition bikes at home? they all have been modified by the original owners to fit their own style.
will you take back my winners circle on the one's that have already been judged??
I had planned on bringing some to Wauseon as that is the featured bike this year

[scd]

There will be no going backward on prior awards. You earned that award fair and square at the time. We are now focused on honoring "as raced" competition motorcycles with a new class. Whether we will have something up and running by Wauseon is uncertain, but it is definitely a top priority of mine. Stay tuned, we all love the competition modified (real) racers.

[speedracer]

There will be no going backward on prior awards. You earned that award fair and square at the time. We are now focused on honoring "as raced" competition motorcycles with a new class. Whether we will have something up and running by Wauseon is uncertain, but it is definitely a top priority of mine. Stay tuned, we all love the competition modified (real) racers.

so does this mean that the rumor I heard that they will no longer get the usual
JR, SR and WC awards is true or false

[scd]

Nothing has been finalized at this point, but in all likelihood the competition modified motorcycles will earn their own unique awards.

[Robin-M]

Hello Speedracer and all,

Yes, you are correct. You will not get the normal awards anymore if this New Judging Committee gets what they're after. They still don't have any set rules, but none of them understand period competition rules that pertains to these motorcycles, so rather than them learn the competition rules of the time periods that these machines are from, they basically want to classify them as a mere period modified with a basic award instead of our AMCA Jr 1, 2 and Senior and Winners Circle awards. When I was still part of the committee I tried to tell them in October that Kevin and I wanted to just add the word "Competition" to the engraved trophy plaque of the Jr 1, 2 and Senior, signifying that it is the competition class and it was judging differently. Some of the comments and arguments by some of the committee people, saying they don't understand the way these machines were judged, even after I explained in print, they still didn't understand. So it wonders me how they can judge the machines that some of them are marque experts on. Basically all of our competition bikes and the largest part of motorcycling history, they want to degrade to a period modified type class. Only because of their lack of experience, common sense and knowledge on these machines.

If this new committee gets accomplished what they want to do with the judging, we won't even recognize it. These people need to be stopped. With my experience, I can see what's happening, I can see what's going to happen, and they're destroying it. With past experiences with judging in the AMCA, I know how the membership feels about different rules, etc, and how they react. But, the new regime didn't want my experience, they want to run everything and that they will, they'll run it right into the ground. Out of everyone on the new committee, I know more than all of them put together.

So they take the most knowledgable person out of the equation, why, because I was told I don't work well on a team. Yes, I have it in print. Could it be that I have my own opinion and that the opinion is based on 30+ years of judging experience.

I know they're going to say I should take this to another thread, but this was one of the main complaints I had about the things they were doing, so far. The only competition motorcycles that will be allowed to win one of our regular trophies is one that is a factory bike eaxactly "how it left the factory". How many race bikes are "how they left the factory", not many. And if you're unlucky enough to have an Indian Sport Scout, the only one that will be eligible for our normal trophies will be the fifty 648 racers. Since THEY are the only factory production racer Sport Scouts that Indian produced.

Robin Markey

[Robin-M]

My previous message should read -

Out of all of them on the new committee, I know more than all of them put together on the competition bike rules.

Sorry!