Hostile Takeover

[Robin-M]

Fred,

You're right I don't include my past effort as a destruction of the judging system, the system that I helped build.

As far as the bogus engine numbers that the board voted to disqualify, that is a very complex situation with a lot of variables in all the different brands of motorcycles that we judge in the AMCA judging system, from the beginning years of motorcycling, up to and including 1975 this year. 99% of the information that was given on numbers pertained to Harleys, and a small amount on Indian numbers. None of the other brands were touched. This was a subject that I felt needed a lot more discussion before it was voted on by the judging committee.

I guess you still don't get it on the competition bikes. We have always used separate criteria to judge these machines. They were judged by the governing rules of their racing time period, whether it was FIM or AMA rules, which is how they were allowed to be used in competition. The only thing Kevin and I wanted to do with the competition class was add the word "Competition" to the engraved trophy plaque, which would signify that it was judged under different criteria. Not adding any extra cost to the national for the setup of a new trophy. Many of these racers will stay at home the way the new committee wants to treat them.

I didn't just sit on the sidelines for 35 years and watch the changes take place in our judging system, I helped to make it grow and become more refined to benefit our membership and their motorcycles and the preserving of history.

You say we are now trying to take more of the human opinion element out of it by having the data and info to prove a technical point. Are humans gathering this data and recording it? I am well aware how lately the human element has been trying to be eliminated in our judging system. For an example, all our other past presidents felt that it was beneficial and rewarding to our members (which are humans) to be handed our prestigious awards in person and with a handshake congratulating them. Our present president has never done this, although I know I asked him to. I guess since the new committee is trying to eliminate the human opinion element, as is evident in the large corporate world, maybe they could just not even have an awards ceremony, and just mail the trophies to the recipients. I guess according to you and the new committee, I'm wrong, I always felt that the human element was one of the most important aspects, not only in the judging world, but in everyday life.

Cutting costs, trimming and refining the entire club's functions has had an effect. I was aware this way before Eustis and figured that my expenses that I have been receiving for two years was probably the next to go. It didn't surprise me at all. What surprises me is why the need for all the cutting costs and scrimping on the expenses? In 1994 we had approximately $260,000 in the treasury so where did all the money go?

You keep bringing up about having the motorcycles running. I want everyone to know this was the job of the chapter judge. Some of the meets did it differently than others, but the dot on the headlight has been used at several meets for many years. Quite a few of the other meets, the motorcycles had to be started or proofed running before they were allowed to go into the judging area. This was started because at Wauseon years ago, a person was starting their bike on the judging field, it caught fire, there were no fire extinguishers handy like there was supposed to be and that motorcycle and several other motorcycles were almost burned. This is not a new rule. Those acting like this is a wonderful new rule, must not have attended many meets or didn't pay attention to the machines running or maybe the meet wasn't following proper procedure.

You say it's not the marque knowledge that makes the whole thing work. This you'll have to explain to me. If you take the marque knowledge away how are you going to judge a motorcycle? Or are you doing to adopt the custom car show criteria? You need marque knowledge to be able to judge. You said before Eustis on one of the judging committee emails how you want to have all the information and documentation for every motorcycle ever made, every year, every brand and every model the way they left the factory. You thought this information should be available on the judging field via laptop computers. Which I said is a great idea. Impossible, but what a great idea. How are you going to compile this info without marque experts?

You keep saying positive things about my vast marque knowledge and the all the benefits and improvements that I've brought to the judging system and our members showing motorcycles, saying how wonderful it is. Why shouldn't my knowledge be available to the AMCA membership through the judging? We always tried to get marque experts to use and share their knowledge on the judging field, the more marque experts the better for our judging and for our membership. So instead the new committee is alienating the marque experts.

Fred, you might be fairly new to the board, but don't play dumb with me. You know of one person, the same person that started this judging takeover, is a member of just about every committee, including the AMCA Steering committee, that the board has. So it sounds to me like one person is just about in charge of everything. Just wondering, does he break policies and procedures in every committee he's involved in?

Bottom line - you can have all the rules in the world, but without the knowledge and common sense of qualified judges, you won't be able to properly enforce them. This is why I'm so upset. I've been watching the dumbing down of America for years, now I'm supposed to sit back and watch the dumbing down of the AMCA Judging System I spent so much of my life trying to improve for the preservation of history and benefits to our members.

Robin Markey

[Edd]

Are you getting ready to have one of your baby's judged?
RF.

Fred,
The last time I had a bike judged was 1993 or 1994. That time was a very bad experience as I was told a 53 Indian could not have a solo seat. The team of judges know you could but higher ups did not agree. So I am totally thru with having any of my bikes judged and don't think this new rubarb will change my mind.

I have one bike I call my ZERO point restoration. But really to obtain zero points would be harder than 100 points. Probably should rename it a "50 Pointer" half good, half bad or "HAR" "half assed restoration" might be better. The good part of it is four of the grand kids know how to start it an ride it. (has a side car) One was 11 when he was able to start and ride it. They don't seam to mind what it is..............
Ed

[indianut]

I am a Casual Observer. Definitely 'out of the Loop', but I do see Mr. Slocomb on this site fairly regularly, giving advise so I know he is reading all of this discussion and I can not help but wonder why he has not spoken up!

[Lonnie]

(Quoted from Robin Markey):

"You say it's not the marque knowledge that makes the whole thing work. This you'll have to explain to me. If you take the marque knowledge away how are you going to judge a motorcycle? Or are you doing to adopt the custom car show criteria? You need marque knowledge to be able to judge. You said before Eustis on one of the judging committee emails how you want to have all the information and documentation for every motorcycle ever made, every year, every brand and every model the way they left the factory. You thought this information should be available on the judging field via laptop computers. Which I said is a great idea. Impossible, but what a great idea. How are you going to compile this info without marque experts?"

Truer words have never been spoken...

I read a novel once by Robert Ruark, entitled "Uhuru" (published 1962), centered on the Mau Mau revolt in Kenya, and there is one line in the book that has always stuck with me, where a native chieftain says (I'm paraphrasing), "before you can take something away from the people, you must replace it with something of value". The connection between that and this event is that the "something of value" here that is replacing the old is perceived by many as having no value. These new rules (the ones that are truly new) are in some cases unenforceable - how many Yamaha dirt bike authorities are there our there who can testify as to the veracity of the VIN on such a model? Or all the old Harleys and Indians going to forever remain the models being primarily scrutinized? Of course, the politically correct answer is "No, we will judge them also". My response, "When and using what as backup?"

I personally believe that there is absolutely no conceivable way to completely rule out bogus machines being passed off as real. It will happen! (As an example, it is believed that there are more apparently legit 1967 L-88 Corvettes in existence than were ever produced!) And now, the AMCA has become complicit in the passing off by stating that, based on the bounty of knowledge resident in the club, they can make that determination at any event for any make and model. And what if it is determined that the VIN is bogus? Remember, legally an individual is complicit in a crime if he is aware of its occurrence, has the ability to report the crime, but fails to do so. For those unaware, having in your possession a vehicle with an altered VIN is a crime. And ignorance of that being an altered VIN is not a legally acceptable excuse.

[Sargehere]

I personally believe that there is absolutely no conceivable way to completely rule out bogus machines being passed off as real. It will happen! (As an example, it is believed that there are more apparently legit 1967 L-88 Corvettes in existence than were ever produced!) And now, the AMCA has become complicit in the passing off by stating that, based on the bounty of knowledge resident in the club, they can make that determination at any event for any make and model. And what if it is determined that the VIN is bogus? Remember, legally an individual is complicit in a crime if he is aware of its occurrence, has the ability to report the crime, but fails to do so. For those unaware, having in your possession a vehicle with an altered VIN is a crime. And ignorance of that being an altered VIN is not a legally acceptable excuse.

Interesting points you make on the bogus VINs. By that way of thinking, the AMCA is complicit if we become aware of the bogus VIN and don't disqualify it. Then we have abetted the crime.
We're not the police, as has been stated, obligated to report every bad VIN we see to authorities, but it's worse to "shine on" what we know to be a fake VIN, telling not even the owner, than to give him the bad news.

Did you see where the '46EL "Senior Award" winner that was disqualified at Eustis was for sale on EBay? Sale expired today:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Harle...Q5fmotorcycles
Made $23,100, but not "reserve," for a bike with illegitimate numbers.
The VIN is 46EL35000-plus. You ever hear of a 46 Harley with numbers in 35-thousands? The number was completely restamped with 'hardware store' numbers, and 6s like Harley used decades later, and upped by a factor of ten over what it probably originally wore, by stamping on a 5th numeral, to insure it wasn't copying a real, registered Harley number, probably. The official company book, "Harley...The Legend Begins" puts Harley production of ALL models in 1946 in the 16,000 range.
Were we supposed to pass on that, and look at the finer points of the bike, and give it the "Winners' Circle of Excellence" it was eligible for?
Like in everything else, the key is detectability. Judges are human, can't touch the bikes we're examining, and so it's all visual. No doubt, number stamps will come along that are undectable, but stupidity always will be.

[Lonnie]

The '46 on Ebay is interesting in that a club brother in another state had a '46 that he bought a couple of years ago from a supposedly reputable seller in the Northeast. Bike looked good, a few incorrect items but very minimal aftermarket. Well, he went to register it only to find that a bike with identical VIN was registered in another state, not his state nor the one the bike came from. He went several rounds with the state guys trying to have them verify, with the other state, the validity of the other bike's VIN. Well, one day they called him, asked him to bring it to the licensing division for one last look, whereupon they seized the bike after calling for a flatbed rollback to transfer the bike from his truck to the ground (no ramp with him). And he had to pay for the rollback.

After several more go-rounds, he was allowed to keep the bike since they had no evidence that it was stolen. He was issued a state VIN that was, yes, you guessed it, the number of the VIN with a "1" added to the end. They did not stamp the 1 on the motor but he ended up affixing a VIN plate to the frame. It is interesting in that this Ebay bike may have very well suffered the same fate in it's life.

And how in the world did that bike ever get a Senior!!! It has more chrome than my wife's Sportster, which, trust me, has a ton at her behest!!

Back to Robin's topic, the whole disagreement could have been avoided if Kevin and Robin had been included at the very start. There is no doubt that doing so would have involved additional work to find the common ground and would have perhaps taken longer to complete,but the end result would have been that there would have been much less grief on Robin's part (and Kevin's also I would think).

I am a member of CORSA (Corvair Society of America), which has been around since the late 60's. Totally open books, members submit applications to the board for openings by region such as Northeast, Southeast, etc., all applicants are allowed quite a bit of space to discuss their qualifications and the membership then votes via mailed-in ballot for their choice by their region. If you as a member have a beef, you contact your board rep and he or she gets you an answer. No muss, no fuss, since everyone truly feels well represented. Recent discussion in the club mag (monthly but much smaller than the AMCA's) has revolved around the need to raise the dues and the president, in his column, has asked for ideas on how to avoid an increase. Every single avenue has been addressed and though an increase is coming, I can clearly see that the increase is a necessary evil - I and all members have seen the numbers. The key is openness and communication.

To follow a similar tact in the AMCA would involve a complete mind change on the part of the board members now in place and could only occur if they amend the by-laws accordingly. Personally, I see no reason that it should not occur. It would be simple enough to divide up the membership in a realistic fashion so that all areas of the "globe" feel represented.

I am sure that each board member, and I have the utmost regard for the time they all put in, has the strongest belief that they are doing the best thing for the club in every decision they make. And I am also fairly sure that there are those on the board who would have no problem opening up to elected positions. The fear of the unknown, that the board would fall into disarray and no longer function, is what keeps this from happening. I, and many others, feel that these fears are ungrounded, that the club would be better and stronger as a result.

In parting, I would to state one of the keys in running a successful business, which is that the worst reason to do something is "because you have always done it this way". You must innovate and change as things change around you.

[Chris Haynes]

Hi Ed,
There is nothing new about our criteria being based on how the came from the "factory", this has always been the basis.
Since Harleys don't have frame #s until the '50s,

Fred,
H-D didn't number frames untill 1970.
I have a question about the leadership in judging. It seems that all the leaders are indian folks. In general they know nothing about H-D, just as most H-D folks know nothing about Indians. When you call upon them to make a judging decision about a H-D they are "In the dark". You need to have someone from the national level at meets that know both. If this takes two members then so be it.

[Sargehere]

Chris, I took Fred's meaning to be that Harleys have identifiable year and date codes on their top motor mounts since the '50s, and since he's talking about matching frame and engine years, that's all you need.

[Greg H]

Just to clarify,
Edd`s year correct but non matching numbers Indian could reach winners circle status?

[jww]

Have been thru judging 3 times at Davenport and 2 times at Eustis with the last time being approx. 2005. I was required to prove the motors would run before being allowed enter judging each time.
Was I the only one this was asked of ? It is being presented as if this is a new rule. Do you mean to tell me that I had a "Kicking Contest" on a Harley 165ST at Davenport in 1999 and I am the only one who was required to do so ? (Dang 2-Strokes !!!)
Johnny Whitsett
#8626

[redfred84]

HD Judges

Fred,
H-D didn't number frames untill 1970.
I have a question about the leadership in judging. It seems that all the leaders are indian folks. In general they know nothing about H-D, just as most H-D folks know nothing about Indians. When you call upon them to make a judging decision about a H-D they are "In the dark". You need to have someone from the national level at meets that know both. If this takes two members then so be it.

Hey Chris,
The New Chief & Assistant Chief are HD guys, where the previous positions were held by Indian Guys. I think there's a conspiracy going on here? ; ). I understand you relocated out of SoCal, and are up here in NorCal, where it's really at?

RF.

[bikerdds]

Hostile takeover

Hi guys. I would like this chance to offer some input on the incidents that occurred at Eustis and the removal of both Robin and Kevin from their judging positions. I have no gripe with the judges rules committee, which was the incident that led to this fiasco. We certainly can improve our rules. There will always be room for improvement. There will never, however, be a perfect result. This is just a work in [continuous] progress. Steve Dawdy has stepped up to do a difficult job under less than ideal circumstances, but the circumstances never should have occurred in the first place. This certainly is not an indictment of him or his efforts since the committee began anew to try and improve our judging, which to many of us is the heart and soul of the AMCA.
The real problem here is an out of touch board of directors with NO direct representation from the members. Most club members are probably not aware [may not care, but they should] that we DO NOT elect our board. We can not even attend a board meeting [unless specifically invited]. The board is responsible only to the board. Did we, the members, have anything to do with the split of the club and Foundation [right or wrong]? HELL NO! All this was done behind closed doors, and with NO warning of what was to come. Have we seen any kind of accounting for the hundreds of thousands of dollars involved in this transaction? HELL NO! Are you aware we have no direct involvement or control what so ever with the Foundation or it’s finances? Anyone who attempted to come forward and question this was branded a “trouble maker” [Mark, I know you are out there. Does this sound familiar to you?] and then told to shut up. Just this month, the Vintage Japanese Motorcycle Club posted a full page ad in their club magazine inviting members to meet the board and attend their board meeting. Why can’t we? There has been this excuse, that in the past we could and no one chose to attend. It is fine if no one chooses to attend; it is another when you are not ALLOWED to attend.
While our board has tried to do what it feels is in the best interest of the club, because there is no direct member involvement, it [the board] has also felt that there is no one out there who can do what it does. This fear is unjustified. We should be able to submit qualifications that are published in our club magazine if we desire to run for the board, then be voted in by the members accordingly. The old “this is the way it has been” just isn’t right or relevant today. For the most part, we may just be a bunch of old bikers as another member so eloquently said, but there is no excuse for the fact we need to run like a business. Corporate meetings are open to the stockholders. Why aren’t we? Even if we are not for profit, we have the right to see and hear about OUR organization and the money WE put into it.
The tie in between the board and this judging fiasco is that while a rules committee was and is a good idea, it was flawed from the start. The board is an incestuous group, has, and will continue to be that way until we, the members, stand up and demand it be changed. There were board members also on the committee [sorry Fred, just stating the facts, not your intent or mind set]. This committee should have been pure, with just card carrying judges, senior judges, and deputy judges on the committee with NO ability to carry a hidden agenda to the committee or the board. Our chief judge, Kevin, should have been allowed to chair the committee, but not have a vote him self [he also is on the board]. Instead, the president took over, and with suggestions other than from our head judge or the assistant head judge he attempted to direct the committee. Rocky is not into the judging. Our board members [there are two besides Kevin] either should have excused themselves or not voted on the board for any of these measures, but in reality should not have crossed over from board member to committee member to start with. Even if they had purest of motive, it wouldn’t matter. There would be and was a clear conflict of interest here. This is typical. How many board members are on committees where the membership has no say, or are invited to participate, but when things go to the board can’t attend unless invited. Closed door meetings with no responsibility direct to the members invites abuse. Please use the following url from the Sunshine Chapter for their take of these events at Eustis.
http://sunshinechapter.antiquemotorcycleclub.us ) anywhere. The Sunshine Chapter welcomes anyone to our website from anyplace.
There are a lot of us that owe our knowledge of Indian motorcycles to Robin. I certainly am one of them. There is an endless list of folks just like me. No member should stand by and let this abuse of power by our president or board members go. This whole fiasco appears to be a set up from the start. Some reward for selfless giving of 35 years. Many judges [at least 7] would not judge at Eustis due to loyalty to Robin over this mess. There also were several members who planned to show a bike and decided not to also over loyalty to Robin while this mess was being settled. Robin is correct that no board member came over to him at any time Saturday, as I was with him a majority of the day. He was humiliated over this. This was definitely a low blow by the board.
We have always done the best we could in the past to NEVER turn a member away. Remember, the judging is still an opinion of what is believed to be correct. There is nothing in writing that is a guarantee of correctness. It is just our best opinion. So, if we do not have some one qualified to judge at a particular meet, do we have to set up an appointment with someone qualified [if found] in the future? This is another reason for some disclaimer on the judging sheet, but not a full page disclosure. [see the following]. Robin or Kevin never let a bike go without judging in the past, especially if pre registered. Can you imagine, some one has pre registered, and then arrives after traveling a long distance to “we can’t judge your bike today; come back later when we have a judge”?
Then there is also the matter of the intended full page disclosure that got out at Eustis that the board wants members to sign in the future. While we do need to protect the club, a simple sentence and disclosure would be sufficient. We don’t need a full page of legalese to enter a motorcycle to be judged! This is intimidation, and not necessary. Plus, the owner supposedly can’t use the judging as validation of a bikes value! This is one reason many have them judged in the first place since day 1. This disclosure will be seen here ASAP for all to see and be horrified by. It really makes you feel like you are being required to sign some legal contract.

We should not be in a hurry to change the judging rules. They should be modified, then posted and implemented at a time certain. While the intent is to protect the purity of the judging system and the club, the disservice to the members to “rush to justice” is not what the committee intended.
Finally, the message here is the same that is currently wrong with our government on the health care issue. Our President promised open dialogue and full disclosure to the US people with all events shown on C-Span. What did we get? The same mess we have with the board. That is, the total lack of disclosure, and hidden agendas with no right to see what is happening because everything is behind closed doors. It is time for the members to take back the board AND our club. Maybe we need an AMCA version of the Tea Party movement seen around the country.

[joestuff]

bikerdds, Very nice write up, thanks. Please consider removing the last sentences, as invoking the present national political situation is a distraction from the rest of an excellent piece of work, IMHO. But I do agree a call to action is needed.

[Carl Olsen]

I have had enough of this crap, there are a few people stirring the pot about this judging thing and I would like to buy out their memberships and give them to someone who would appreciate them. If you select few people who are unhappy with the AMCA, the greatest antique motorcyle club ever, will contact me I will personally refund your membership and you can go join the Vintage Japanese Motorcycle Club and attend all of the board meetings you want, I am sure you will find it quite boring after a few sessions.

Last year there was a membership drive contest and the winner was a person who signed up 5 new members, that person was me and the people who I signed up were new customers that I contracted to restore bikes for, this is company policy to get them involved and exposed to the AMCA. The prize was a free membership, guess what I did with that one, I gave it away.

The AMCA members, board, and foundation helped with the bike giveaway for Ryan Mackey to get more young people interested in our hobby, my business took a hit of time and parts to make this happen and there is more to come, but this is our contribution to the future of the club. The more you give the more you will get back, so try doing something for the club instead critisizing the people who are.

The $30 membership dues are a small price to pay for all that you get from the club, which by the way if you invested $30 per year in a company in stocks you would have little to show for it, considering the current staqte of the economy, plus no right to vote or a say at the board meetings. Get real people and get off your butts and away from the computer and do something for the club to make it better, turn your frown upside down.

All of these opinions are mine alone and have nothing to do with my son being a board member, that is his thing and this is mine.

Carl Olsen member #1270

[Chris Haynes]

Hey Chris,
The New Chief & Assistant Chief are HD guys, where the previous positions were held by Indian Guys. I think there's a conspiracy going on here? ; ). I understand you relocated out of SoCal, and are up here in NorCal, where it's really at?

RF.

Fred,
I have a place in Pine Grove but due to the economy still living and working in LA.