Monkey Business

[bmh]

Alright, since were busy flogging the re-creationists in the thread next door, let's see what everyone thinks of this. As most know I have an affection ( or affliction ) for original early pans. when I see one I photograph it thoroughly. I will photograph every one I see and sometimes when I get home I see that I've re-photographed a bike. I've noticed the owners of these machines sometimes making changes on these machines, things mostly like hardware though sometimes much more. All in the quest to gain a better score. I believe most of the hardware changes I've noticed are because a judge believes that the original configuration was incorrect and the guy got docked for it when in fact other bikes of the same age all seem to show it was correct before it was changed. I realize that no one knows everything about any of these machines and judges make mistakes like the rest of us. But now we have an example of a machine that has been altered to fit someones idea of what it should be, forever erasing the record of what it was. I've also seen folks on the grounds busy with tool kits swapping out the parts from an original machine with stuff they just bought that morning, or installing accessories that the bike did not originally possess. So my question is, if one is changing parts or hardware on an original machine to gain points are they not in fact in the process of restoring said machine? Shouldn't an original machine that has notable changes made since it's prior judging be kicked into the restored class? Should any changes to an original machine between judging be tolerated? How does allowing people to change the originals that are left preserve history or help provide reference for those performing restorations on similar machines?

[bmh]

OK, 59 people read it and no one had anything to say. I guess everyone else is fine with removing most likely original straight slot screws and replacing them with Phillips simply to make the machine conform to something published or a photo of a prototype that may not truly represent actual production and to hell with what may have actually been original. So then let's just admit that we are an organization whose primary focus is show bikes with history running a distant second.

[exeric]

I will always remember my friend that lucked into a 1937 EL that was quite original. He tossed the ON/OFF oil guage because he thought it was from a tractor. I think you can attribute owner changes to ignorance, and I mean that with respect. I don't believe all of the mysteries of H-D, Indian, Hen/Ex ect. will be revealed but it's remarkable how much has been re-discovered and I think it will only improve in time. Many of the top judged bikes of 20 years ago would be lucky to get a Junior First today. That's why I have no worries about reproduction pioneer motorcycles being mistaken for genuine. In 20 years the real stuff will be well known and documented and the general knowledge in the AMCA should be considerably advanced.

[c.o.]

Brian......I'm just getting to this post now and I have to say that I can see your point(s). I say leave history alone. If you only start with a pile of parts then do what you can with what you have. But I cringe at the thought of people tearing apart original machines even if they were adjusted somewhat along the way. Perhaps some folks get to focused on perfection and sacrifice history and soul for that perfect score on the card. Period photos are really the only true way to see what went on back in the day. Factory photos aren't even always reflective of what was put on the market. Just a thought. It would be nice to hear what the judges think.... Speak up folks...

[rwm]

it's are american nature to demolish history and replace it with new look at the house in your town that was on main and broad st nice victorian. now it's a cvs.or walmart. wy should bikes be any different go from harley to ted

[T. Cotten]

At risk of repeating myself:

"Restoration has destroyed far more History than it shall ever preserve."

....Cotten

[exeric]

it's are american nature to demolish history and replace it with new look at the house in your town that was on main and broad st nice victorian. now it's a cvs.or walmart. wy should bikes be any different go from harley to ted

That's the flip side of the American dream. We're a great and progressive country but we have so little respect or memory of the past, and, like Cotten said, restoration has it's evil side.. Fortuanately we are members of a club that is suppose to be dedicated to preserving the past. I guess we all need to be reminded of that now and then.

[rwm]

i have a friend that got his fathers 62 vette (father is alive and well) just wanted to give his son the car 75.000 original miles last year power top, wonder bar radio, hub caps, all original paint a real beauty .not for bobby a vette needs to shine.he hasn't ruined it yet and maybe a few die hard post from you guys can help me stop him. but he has his eye on frame up restoration on the vette. he thinks that will put the car in it's glory and the way it should be. high gloss

[joestuff]

No, don't let him paint the 62 Vette. I would love to get it next to my 62 XLCH for some period shots.

Anyway, to the greater discussion of this thread, Is it not the owners responsibility to prove the bike is correct, and the judge to respect that. We cannot expect the judges to know it all. So one should strive to present evidence that a screw is correct rather then replace it. A judge at the next meet might disagree with the first, and the same screw goes on and off at ever meet. If you prove it is correct, then it's done. I know this is harder said then done, but nobody said this was about easy.

First time I had my CH judged, I was amazed by all they did not know, and watched them skip stuff that was wrong, and ding for stuff that was right. Next time I'll have the evidence to educate them(us) with.

[flat-happy]

get him in touch with the corvette museum or take him there for a visit if at all possible. the original paint vettes are worth about $75ooo more than restored ones. if he won't leave it alone for history's sake maybe he at least knows the value of a dollar. the car is worth more now than anything he can do to it even from a reputable shop. the only shop that will paint that car is one who knows nothing about corvettes. they will take his money but they will not improve the car. how far are you from bowling green? i'm about 45 minutes away

http://www.corvettemuseum.com/

[T. Cotten]

Good grief.
Doesn't he watch the "Antiques Roadshow" with Gramma?

Put it in a trust if his brain isn't ripe.

Just my humble opinion.

...Cotten

[bmh]

Here is a case study on how our current standard for judging original bikes and the encouragement it offers to modify these machines through the reward of increased points (which in turn can lead to increased monetary gain ) could very well become a problem down the road. I will not mention any names or serials as I am not accusing anyone of anything fraudulent.

Here is an early 51 pan as presented for judging where it was awarded it's Junior. Please note the Phillips screws around the entire perimeter of the D-ring.



Here are two more 51's, several thousand units newer. Both currently winners circle machines. Again note the Phillips screws.





Now here is that early 51 we looked at in the first example when it was awarded the Winners Circle. Note the Allen head screws as described in texts with a little oil on them for camouflage.



Now here's the problem we have coming. Eventually some of these machines will change hands and have to start the judging process all over again. So we could very well have the two later production examples now coming back in for their Juniors while the altered earlier production machine resides in the Winners circle, with dust dried on its oiled replacement hardware and appearing quite legit. Now the two newer machines get docked for hardware. After all the book and the early production winners circle machine both clearly show Allens in these positions. So these owners change their machines, now we have three examples that have been altered solely because of our judging system. We reward people for making these changes with points. I personally find this very disheartening.

After having watched the judging process much better the past three or four years I've started thinking that perhaps we need to judge these machines in a different manner from their restored counterparts.They are two completely different animals after all. To start, let's change the name from original to something like preservation class. I know, It's semantics but it does set a different overall tone doesn't it? Next perhaps instead of judging these machines for the technical accuracy of every tidbit like a restored machine we judge them on major component accuracy such as correct frame, motor , sheet metal combination and also on the degree of preservation. How well did it weather the years? Is it a nice example of that year? Is it clean and in decent enough repair to actually take a 30 mile ride on? things like that. This may discourage a lot of the tampering and help preserve these machines in whatever state they were found for future generations to enjoy and use as reference. Just my thoughts and observations.

[rwm]

i'm outside philly pa. you can see the dear in the headlights look in his eyes.when you tell him but it's been 6 months now and untouched

[Greg H]

Brian, see what you mean
I own a machine 69 yrs old with character of ageing sheet metal /motor /trans/frame even most of the tidbits, but would never be seen under present judging
due to the fact of a previous owner hand painted it a non stock color 30+ years back (even that has age worn look),i even know what it`s original color was as he never lifted the rear tail light when painting!

So only way if ever to be judged is to strip down to restore, needs some frame repair work to both stands mountings etc so total lrestore from that reason seems easy justifiable?
Tho i do have a nagging doubt, for some reason

[kval]

Greg H
DON'T TOUCH THAT MACHINE!!!!
we have allowed machines just like yours in as original, BUT you will get a 6 point hit for the repaint. this is done so people can still get to look at a good example of what the bike should be(except for paint).
rember: you can restore 100's of times, but THEY ARE ORIGINAL ONLY ONCE!!
Kevin



Brian, see what you mean
I own a machine 69 yrs old with character of ageing sheet metal /motor /trans/frame even most of the tidbits, but would never be seen under present judging
due to the fact of a previous owner hand painted it a non stock color 30+ years back (even that has age worn look),i even know what it`s original color was as he never lifted the rear tail light when painting!

So only way if ever to be judged is to strip down to restore, needs some frame repair work to both stands mountings etc so total lrestore from that reason seems easy justifiable?
Tho i do have a nagging doubt, for some reason