Replica Early Harleys

[Rubone]

Probably where Noone hangs out!
Robbie

[LouieMCman]

There's more than one AMCA Senior bike out there that is 100% repop except the motor. I thought you needed an original frame and forks?

[bmh]

There's more than one AMCA Senior bike out there that is 100% repop except the motor. I thought you needed an original frame and forks?

The handbook only states that reproduction motors are not allowed. Everything else would be covered under the terms accurate reproductions are permissible, for a restored motorcycle anyway. An original bike I think would be expected to be original. Some very rare and early machines would never be seen as whole and functional machines ever again if not for people reproducing frames and forks etc.

[Steve Slocombe]

I looked up the results of the MidAmerica Pebble Beach auction and see that only 35% were sold, with the American bikes less than that. The Harley 1907 strap tank recreation went up to $110k without meeting reserve, and one of those 1913 eight valve Indian racers was unsold at $35k. Looks like buyers are getting wise to early bikes, racers, 8-valves, Peashooters etc. arriving on the auction block with no provenance.

I heard at Davenport that there were probably more than seven of those strap tank recreations built, and an unknown number of other early Harleys which could be passed off on unsuspecting customers and then put in for judging. My understanding is that judged bikes need original engines but can have repro cycle parts. Original engines might just mean original cases, and the fakers are getting pretty good at producing flawless castings and matching the old number stamps. My concern is that the good name of our Club could be compromised by unwittingly authenticating replica bikes through the judging system.

[rwm]

when ever there is a high profit you will have great fakes

[jurassic]

being a faker ,i guess i should weigh in on this subject,and i think this will be the last time i do so. this subject comes up alot and i always feel compelled to defend,deny,explain,expose,refute,police,and generally accept responsibility for this clubs laziness. sorry but it just had to be said. if you go back thru the archives of this very forum you will see that every real strap tank in the world has been picked ,prodded, and documented for decades ,there are only about a dozen of them,we all know which ones they are. we know the VIN numbers,we know who owned it when,and where it came from,we know which parts were changed and what years they changed em .research my friends! research! i myself tried to start a similar thread documenting the real harley 8 valves,there are less than 10 of them.no one was interested. believe it or not i dont think even 7 real indian 8 valves are still in existence.shouldn't be hard to document 7 bikes. is that not what this club is dedicated to "history" , "motorcycles". is there not a little of that 120 grand a year we pay for floorspace in someone elses museum available to archive what we here on this forum are freely giving you.if we let this inaction continue,then all the guys who can set the historical record straight will be dead. people rely on the club to tell them the truth,should you not know the truth.personally i am done trying to make this horse drink,i guess he aint thirsty.

[exeric]

I think you have pretty well nailed it Jurassic. If the legitimacy of pioneer motorcycle is a concern of the AMCA then the AMCA should keep a registry. Otherwise, if an AMCA member wants a bike judged, they have every right (as a member) to have it judged. I have always contended that the AMCA is not a police organization and has no business setting foot in that arena. However, a registry would ease those problems.

[flat-happy]

hello jurassic---if i may i'd like to add my 2 cents worth. i've been doing this a while collecting restoring buying and selling and this is a little of what i've learned over the last 40 years or so. a lot of people own a few of the parts that still exist, a handlebar here a gas tank there a frame somewhere else. they would all like to own the whole motorcycle but won't give up the piece they own to have someone else end up with the rare bike. they would rather buy reproduced parts or try to reproduce a few of their own and call it original. i even knew a guy who buried parts in the ground for a few months to make the repop parts look original. those people won't tell what they know because the information would tell the truth and then the truth becomes a problem for their bike. they would rather read what someone else is willing to print then try to avoid the truth to legitimize their own few parts better. i hope this is making sense. if everyone brought their parts that they know to be original to one location and assembled what they had a couple more originals might surface from the effort. for that to happened everyone would have to take greed out of the equation and realize that we are all just stewards of these things for a very short time but the bikes live on in whatever condition we leave them in. i just hope that everyone who is connected with producing a fraudulent motorcycle is exposed and remembered as such when the bike is left behind. you cannot change the truth in the slightest way. as far as i know you have never tried to pass anything reproduction off as original and you are doing a great service as a historian and a steward of these old bikes and parts. thank you for that---stillman small AMCA 12332

[c.o.]

Well said fellas. A roster would be a great idea. They aren't building strap-tanks or eight valves in Milwaukee anymore. So putting the few survivors from 100 years and better on a list with the particulars should take the worry away from judges and future judges in the club. The original or restored originals could be recorded possibly during the judging process? After that it can go back to having fun and spending some time in yesteryear! I mean really the guy putting parts in the ground to pull a fast one......who's he really fooling? He's the guy twitching when he tells you it's all original at the antique meet. Jurassic, I appreciate your machines because I have a nostalgic day dreamer mentality. What's the difference in the end from the freshly painted "fake" and the "fake" with the aged look? If I were to choose a machine from those two I'd take the aged one. Just because I like time trippin'.... really how realistic are any of us who love the pioneer machines? The more pieces that can be put together and machines made out of them for people to enjoy the better. The people passing off fake as real are just lookin' at the investment aspect. Others willing to admit repro parts (no matter how original they look) are in it for the fun. Maybe they should put a "replica" class into the judging field. That way people could be proud of the accurate reprodution parts on their pioneer machines. Just another opinion...... I'll run into the bomb shelter now......

[knuckleheadmike]

I think the idea of a "reproduction" bike category is worth considering. I'm in the process of determining if my frame is correct for my cases (thanks Steve Little and others). If it isn't then I'm going to restore it to as close to factory standards as I can most likely using the frame I have. But if it means using a reproduction frame I'd still enjoy being judged on my efforts in researching the correct parts to use even if those parts are not original. I also think a registry is a good idea, especially on the early very rare bikes. Plymouth only made I think 14 Hemi Cudas in 1970 and any serious collector can probably tell you where all of the remaining 7 or 8 are and who owns them. It's important to give an original car or motorcycle it's proper designation. If I find that I have a frame that matches my cases then I'd like to see it registered through some official judging process and have it recognized as an "original". Just my 2 cents worth.

[Chris Haynes]

Plymouth only made I think 14 Hemi Cudas in 1970 and any serious collector can probably tell you where all of the remaining 7 or 8 are and who owns them.

One of them is owned by a guy at Disney Studios in Burbank, CA. He drives it to work a couple times a month.

[INLINE4NUT]

The trouble is FAKE is FAKE!! I dont care if the POPE owns one !! It just is not right ! But then again half of what is wrong in our great country stems from Make Believe !!

[exeric]

Lonnie presented the perfect solution but it's obvious that there is a stubbourness in the AMCA that can't be changed. Personally, I choose to defend the craftsmen that have resurrected so many hopeless basket case gems with their perfect reproduction parts. There will always be people of low morals that will try to palm bogus bikes, but if you know what you're looking at you can't be fooled.

[bmh]

Well put Eric, truly it is buyer beware. I've been known to crawl over under and anywhere else the current owner will let me for 2 hours or more before I even decide if I think I might want to purchase the machine. And If I don't know much about what I'm looking at I take someone who does.

[T. Cotten]

Conjuring parts is not a sin. Its a lot of hard work if you can do it well.

But the bottom line is that conjuring provenance is against the law. That's fraud when the piece gets cashed in.

Yet of course, everyone 'says' they never intend to part with their artsyfacts.
And its sure hard to sue an estate liquidation for hearsay.

We should all show great concern when the AMCA perpetuates perpetrators, especially when it makes its way into the hardcopy magazine.
Posterity will mistake it for the real thing, because we said so.

Perpetuating Perpetrators of Phony Provenance for Posterity.
Let's call it the PPPPP Class!

I've got one ready.

....Cotten