original vs. restored

[T. Cotten]

Again I speak as an outsider to the judging system, but...

A flawlessly restored machine is an expensive ride.
So many get embalmed.
A historical original is priceless.
So many get embalmed.

Conserved machines are the heartbeat of vintage motorcycling.
Personalized ones are its life's breath.

But the AMCA system clearly favors, promotes, and enforces destructive restoration, with its all-or-none policy.

Don't look now, but there is a flood of classic imports coming into our fold. Its almost 1975, y'know.
What sort of burden is that for our judges. Will the old rules even seem relevant?

One broad new class is better than a bunch of silly little ones (like "Period Modified"), and it might just save some history.


....Cotten

[Jerry Wieland]

I guess I have to agree with Chris on this one. Sometimes a bike is not original enough to be judged as such but too original to be restored. I think a conserved class or whatever you would want to call it is a good enough idea to at least merit discussion by the club.

I really hate to see bikes restored - restored bikes ought to be made up of pieces that have no individual historical merit.

Jerry

[Perry Ruiter]

If an "Original" bike has had the sheet metal repainted it receives a six point deduction. With that six point loss it can never earn a Junior First award.

The six point loss keeps it from winning a Senior award. It can still get to Junior First ... Perry

[parkerize]

Brian- With all due respect, I dont know many OP bikes that do not need serious attention as most generally sit untouched for years and the owner painstakingly goes through them to have them in "running condition", a requirement of the AMCA judging book. Now serious attention does not mean a major dissassembly as you note (at least not for me anyway), but in many instances it does mean rebushing/packing wheels, rebuilding top ends, going through frozen throttles and spark advance systems, rebuilding corroded carbs, going through the electrical system (and many times rebuilding generators and cutouts), replacing a variety of difficult to find hardware and wiring that invariably have been replaced and changing out whatever parts happen to be missing or wrong. I think the AMCA judging system is generally spot on, ensuring that an "original" class machine really is "original" by requiring all original paint sheetmetal, original wiring harness, frame and fork paint etc. (with serious deductions as Chris pointed out earlier where the machine fails to have these items). Sometimes you get lucky and little is required but that is the rarity- that's all.

[Chris Haynes]

If an "Original" bike has had the sheet metal repainted it receives a six point deduction. With that six point loss it can never earn a Junior First award. So if you find a nice original running and rideable 1919 machine and it was repainted in 1923 you are out of luck. Your only hope is to locate original paint sheet metal for it.

[bmh]

Eric- I am not one of those dueling email lords but I respectfully think you misconstrued my original email. I was only responding to your quote that "Original bikes are a treasure and a touchstone for restoration but there sure isn't much work on the part of the owner." The amount of work on the original piece found all depends on the condition of the machine. Having put 3 OP bikes in Winners circle this past year and 2 other original painters in senior this year, I can tell you they were a ton of work to get them there, countless worlwide conversations, searching etc for many years, as well as painstakingly rebuilding worn mechanicals in many cases, as well as matching patinas on scarce parts that were either missing or wrong. What I was not at all implying is that OP bikes are either more or less work than restored machines, circumstances and owner skill sets vary and in my mind it is irrelevant. Again all I was responding to was the statement that there sure isn't much work on the part of the owner of OP bikes, that's all. Happy Holidays and hunting to all and be safe, lifes too short already. . .

So what's the difference between what you are doing and restoration? The choice of finish? Last I checked the judging categories are Original and Restored. I can't find one for original paint. To me if your original find cannot be made to run and be shown for for judging without major disassembly and parts replacement, it is in need of restoring. True original or even surviving machines serve as benchmarks for what is actually correct and of the taste of the period, until someone starts swapping parts around to create what they believe to be more correct or suit their own taste. I for one find it very sad that the current judging system actually rewards this type of thing thereby helping to erode the history we should be seeking to preserve.

[parkerize]

Yes, I know the feeling eric on the guys that find gems and are clueless, only good news is many times those are the guys that end up selling them for lack of a real interest. Enjoy the holidays and good luck on your projects. Anthony.

[Chuck#1848]

Well said Cotten. I love to stumble across old bikes in museums but I can't help but thinking how I could spring them from "prison" and see them out on the road....

Ah....yes,Cory now that to was well said...kind of like seeing a greyhound in a dog cage just begging to get out and run

[exeric]

I know a few people who have built original paint bikes from 50% examples and you are right; it's a ton of work and very expensive and time consuming. Your window of intrusion is very narrow. Probably like building a ship in a bottle. I apologize for dismissing it as simple. I was thinking of a judging experience I had a number of years ago. My restored bike was judged next to the exact same year and model OPB bike. [Each bike judged on it's own merits of course.] The owner got the bike from a relative a few months earlier and only knew the obvious facts about it. The fact that he was an obnoxious drunk didn't endear him to me either.

[parkerize]

Eric- I am not one of those dueling email lords but I respectfully think you misconstrued my original email. I was only responding to your quote that "Original bikes are a treasure and a touchstone for restoration but there sure isn't much work on the part of the owner." The amount of work on the original piece found all depends on the condition of the machine. Having put 3 OP bikes in Winners circle this past year and 2 other original painters in senior this year, I can tell you they were a ton of work to get them there, countless worlwide conversations, searching etc for many years, as well as painstakingly rebuilding worn mechanicals in many cases, as well as matching patinas on scarce parts that were either missing or wrong. What I was not at all implying is that OP bikes are either more or less work than restored machines, circumstances and owner skill sets vary and in my mind it is irrelevant. Again all I was responding to was the statement that there sure isn't much work on the part of the owner of OP bikes, that's all. Happy Holidays and hunting to all and be safe, lifes too short already. . .

[Chris Haynes]

It is only original once. It can be restored countless times.

[c.o.]

Well said Cotten. I love to stumble across old bikes in museums but I can't help but thinking how I could spring them from "prison" and see them out on the road....

[T. Cotten]

The difference between "restoration" of a classic, and 'conservation' of an original paint relic is that the former destroys history in an attempt to re-create it, while the latter preserves the real hardware.

The museums are full enough of embalmed machines to suit me.

Let us preserve vintage motorcycle-ing instead.

That means destroying motorcycles mile by mile,.. just like they were intended,.. restored or not.

...Cotten

[moon wolf]

So as a newbie with an original 1970 bike with 3900 miles on it, what would you say is an acceptable quantity of riding. I want to ride the thing as much as possible with as minimal effect as possible on historical and monetary value. I was thinking about 500 miles per year. Is that reasonable? if not, what SHOULD be my target?

I think you should ride it exactly as much as you want to ride, be that 500 or 5000 miles a year. There are enough bikes in museums already. Of course, you should maintain it, repair it, and treat it as a special old bike, but if the spirit moves you, you shouldn't hesitate to ride it from coast to coast.

[exeric]

Not for nothing but you would be surprised how much work goes into original paint machines. Nothing against restored bikes but I have only been interested in orig paint machines for over 20 years and I can tell you I never stop working on these things. Nothing takes short time to do it right and correct against a judging scorecard. Just because a bike is original paint in no way means that the rest of the machine does not need serious attention- original paint bikes that have sat for awhile need tons of painstaking work and research as well, especially against the fact many of these jewels have sat untouched or loved for many years. It is also painstaking to find original paint parts with the right patina where invariably parts get changed over the years. Some parts also take literally 5-10 years to hunt down and just the "hunting" is tons of time with meets, phone calls, classifieds and the newest source, Ebay. Reworking original mechanicals in my view is also harder than starting with fresh aftermarket parts. Also worth noting that some of these cash strapped owners save countless cash to pay the prices rare original paint parts fetch, which again comes down to the owners sweat equity in many cases (although I understand some guys are more fortunate than others in the cash department!!). Again not at all knocking restored bikes and the amount of time needed to complete some of these beautiful restorations. I'm just pointing out that it is seldom you find an original paint bike that scores 95-100 points without a TON of effort on the part of the owner. Sure there are instances where you get lucky and find a true untouched gem that needs little time, but that really is a needle in a haystack.

Nothing you have said is any different than restoration. For instance; my '51FL was a chopper and needed everything that was disgarded for a chopper. I found genuine parts and it's all genuine minus the perishables. My '16F restoration started as a motor only. I've found all genuine stuff but I'll leave it as a "patina" bike. My '48FL started out as a pair of tanks hanging from the ceiling rafters. My '16 Excelsior started out as fenders, and a motor and I went all over the country scaring up parts. Every Henderson I've had was a scavenger hunt and I've made friends all over the world through correspondence. This is just me; look at what SloJo is going through on his '14 H-D project, or Matt and Ryan's 45 project. As I said before; OPB's are a treasure and a window to the past that benefit all of us but if there's enough there to call it "original paint" then it's an easy project compared to the stuff I've resurrected.

Sandman, I think your Sporty is beautiful and again, a valuable specimen for those who will need it to help them with a restoration. I think that responsible riding and pleasure should be your goal because it needs to be used.