Black / Blue parts for 22 henderson

[silentgreyfello]

I started a post in the Henderson section, but maybe it should be here. I have a '22 Henderson deluxe that I am painting. My question is what parts should be black. I have received numerous opinions, but I am down to the point of needing to make a decision.

Parts that should be black without much argument so far are headlight & brackets, cluch and brake pedal, taillight & bracket, and seat hardware.

The parts that seem to have conflicting opinions for blue or black are: handlebars, rockers, rear rack, and rear stand.

I am striving to make this as correct as possible. Judges please help!!! Thanks!

[LarryHeil]

maybe change rules for judging?

This is a good example of some of the problems with the current rules about

judging. It is not what is the best guess from available info, it is what do the Judges

say. For many issues about early MCs there is a lack of good evidence for certain

things like paint color. Hard to find the factory color photos from 1922.
Maybe the rules could be changed to allow for no deductions where there is a lack

of evidence. Now it is "the judges make the determination and the owner must

show factory documation proving their point." (from an email by Kevin recently)

[pete reeves]

Larry.
The current rules are OK; Judges should not make a deduction unless they are positive something is wrong. If a judge knows that there is ongoing debate or controversy about a certain item then he needs to be careful before he deducts points. If he THINKS something is wrong rather than knowing some thing is wrong, he has the option to make a note on the judging sheet with out deducting points for the next team to ponder over.

I have the same problem as Silentgreyfellow.I am restoring a 22 ACE and have too make decisions as to what should be painted black.

I have made enquires and looked at many black and white pictures but still am unable to determine what is correct

At the moment I think the following Items that were supplied by outside suppliers should be black.

Horn and horn mounting bracket.

Tail light and number plate bracket.

Seat springs , spring yoke and under seat reinforcement.

Head lamp.

My thoughts are that the seat bracket that mounts across the frame, the front seat hinge bracket and the headlight mounting brackets were probably made by ACE and would have been painted the same color as the rest of the bike.

I am painting my bike based on what I THINK is correct. I will be putting it in for judging and hope that I have got it right,

If a judge deducts points because I have made a mistake then he should be able to tell me what information he is basing his decision on?

I am always willing to learn.

Getting my bike as accurate as possible is always my first priority so I will fix whatever is wrong.

Pete Reeves 860

[silentgreyfello]

Thanks for the info, Pete. With the very dark blue, it is hard to tell the difference between the black parts, especially with a black/white photo. I have plenty of color photos of restored bikes and they are all over the map on on the blue/black issue. Don't know if any were ever judged.

Kev V... are there any specified judges that work the Hendersons that would have an opinion?

Thank you.

[pete reeves]

The detail of every restored ace that I have seen in the flesh or seen pictures of is different .even pictures of bikes in the same year brochures have differences.

If a judge has an OPINIUM it could be just his opinion. What is it based on?
I would love to see pictures of an unrestored bike that has not been messed with.

Pete 860

[exeric]

I read your previous post and by and large I agree with it, except for the rockers. I have seen a lot of Henderson and Excelsior rockers from 1920 and up and I have only seen black. Your post was the first time I have ever heard anyone say Henderson rockers were blue.

The other items could very well be blue on a K series Hen. The rear stand could be controversial and I would personally lean towards black, but again, we are talking about a K series.

An opinion I would highly regard would be from Toney Watson. He has had a lot of NOS Henderson stuff and owned a real nice early 20's Hen. I would put his Henderson knowledge up against anyone I have met.

[silentgreyfello]

I just wanted to follow up. At Exeric's advice, I called Toney Watson and he indicated that he thought the rockers, headlight and brackets, horn, handlebars, pedals, footboards, all seat hardware, seat T, rear stand and clip, and taillight should all be black, but he indicated that I should contact John Rhodes, who he felt would know for sure.

I called John, and he said that the only things that should be black are most similar to what Pete Reeves indicated... headlight, horn/brkt, pedals, footboards, seat hardware, taillight.

I also spoke with Steve Ciccalone. He thought the same as John and Pete, with the exception of the headlight brackets being black.

I have asked 6 different people and came up with 5 different combinations, though some were close. I don't know if the AMCA judges that are into Hendersons look at this site, but none have chimed in.

I appreciate the those for voicing their opinions. I just wish the guy that is going to deduct points from my resto would jump in, or Kev V could point to who that would be.

[kval]

silentgeryfello
PLEASE! give us advance warning as to which meet you are going to bring this bike to first. as you have found out, there are not alot of people that know for sure what is correct for Hendersons.
we want to do the right thing with all the bikes we judge, but sometimes finding the truth is harder then finding the parts

[Tommo]

Pete,
I have a 1922 Ace sales brochure that has an A5 size colour photo of the bike as the centrefold.
Are you familiar with this image and if not do you want me to get a laser photocopy of it for you?
Regards, Tommo

[silentgreyfello]

silentgeryfello
PLEASE! give us advance warning as to which meet you are going to bring this bike to first. as you have found out, there are not alot of people that know for sure what is correct for Hendersons.
we want to do the right thing with all the bikes we judge, but sometimes finding the truth is harder then finding the parts

I guess my whole point of this post was to find out before I painted the bike, not bring it to the meet and then find out. Could you please point me to just one judge on Hendersons that is the "go-to" person? I sure would appreciate it. Thank you.

[LarryHeil]

This is the type of info that owners need

I agree. I would like to know before hand what the judges think is correct. Many of my seat customers ask the same thing. Some say "I don't care what was correct, I just don't want points takenfrom my bike"
Why can we not get a straight answer about this judging subject?

[kval]

Silentgreyfello
the best ones I know are Toney Watson and Steve Ciccalone, there are probably others but I cannot think of them right now.

[exeric]

I think I know '17, '18, and '19 Hendersons as well as anyone, but I was born in the 1950's so my only first hand knowledge is of NOS parts and the few surviors I have personally eyeballed. I can safely say that all of the exerts out there learned what they know from the same sources as me. By the time you're done researching and restoring your '22 you will be one of the experts and I'll bet there won't be much anyone will be able to tell you that you won't already know. When I had my 1919 Z2 Hen judged I was quite surprised at how little the judge knew about the last of the Detroit style Hendersons. My point is, do your research and when you have the bike judged bring documents to substantiate the things you know will be contentious. Unfortunately, documents will not exist to verify certain items and that's where it gets sticky. You can't carve any of this in stone because time has blown sand over the footprints. Parts got touched up with different colors of paint. Rust replaced paint and plating, and small companies like Excelsior made many undocumented running changes in the coarse of one year of production. I think a consensus opinion from knowledgeable people is your best bet but if I were a judge and you painted your rockers blue, I'd gig you. That's one item I would have to see documented.

[kval]

exeric
THANK YOU!!
I could not have said it any better then that. the judges learn by studying documents and also working on bikes.

so when can we expect you to help judge????

[exeric]

Kevin, I would be happy to judge bikes I think I know. I would not want to judge bikes I'm hazy about because that would be an injustice to the owners. Unfortunately, '17-'19 Hens, and '15-'24 Excelsiors don't show up very often but when one does I'll make myself known to the Senior Judge.