No more AMCA shows for this bike.........

[KNUCK]

Took my 1946' Chief to the meet in Sacramento (Dixon) and two years ago it was judged as an early year model with a few corrections needed. Reached a junior first! Came back last year, I had worked on most of the issues from the year before. After a 30 minute inspection by the two team judge, and conversation with a non judge who just happened to walk by and was asked his opinion, I received less points than the year before. Remember I worked on some of the issues from last year which was to make it a even more solid early model and score higher, not lower.
This "other person" I will not name, said he was sorry if it hurt but it was his opinion it was a later model 46'.

So next year another judge looks at it or another person comes by with an opinion and, well you see what I have here. Indian couldn't even keep track of the parts going on after WWII.

No I am not going to play this back and forth game when there is no set documention by VIN number or something concrete of early vs late, since the first time it was fine as an early production. More cost of time and money. I would love to show some day again.

I should have written a letter to Mr. Valentine but I was too pissed until now to even discuss it, so if he is reading this please help me and others so we don't get to this point .

I know to be a judge is a thankless and hard job but if there is a gray area then you can't stick your pick in the ground and say it is an early or late model without documentation.

[kval]

no more AMCA shows for this bike

Knuck
I am still in Florida, having fun. When I get back home I will try to find your judging sheet.
if you would send an email to my home with your name and the serial number of the bike, I will pull the sheet and see what happened.
it is well known that there were three changes made sometime during the year, and no body knows exactly when each were made.
Robin and myself will review your judging and see what happened
Kevin Valentine

[KNUCK]

Thank you for the response. I will send you a PM with my information.

I also would love to know and I am sure others with this type of bike, what is an early, middle, or late production bike? But then again, does anybody really know for sure given the records kept by Indian. If it is really an opinion by the judge on that given day, then this will discourage people who restore like myself. If there is a black and white answer then we all are fine with that. We need a standard from coast to coast if possible.

Thanks again for your attention to my issue. #7558

[dane]

Same thing has happened to me. Got junior first unrestored and returnred with 4 of 5 corrections and dropped 3 points. Different judges, different opinions. 50's pan. Go figure

[jwl]

I, too have had the same things happen to bikes I have had judged. It upset me a little at first and then I got more involved in the judging process and have been a judge for some time now. You must remember that the judges are all volunteers who get nothing for their services. They give up a lot of time judging at the meets when they could be out swapping or kicking back enjoying themselves or just be getting a head start on their way home. I haven't run into too many judges who think they know everything. Just a few, and it's not hard to tell that they are just full of themselves. The club has lost the sevices of many good judges due to irate members and the lack of any real set in stone rules. It is impossible to set out any real standards to judge by because there simply aren't any. It's as simple as this, If you want to spend the money, take your bike to an expert in the type of bike you are working on. Pay him his going shop rate and get a real good idea of what you have. Or do what I do. Have your bike judged at a few meets by different judges. You will get several opinions of what is right or wrong with your bike. some will be credible and some will be pure BS. It is up to the bike owner, in my opinion, to then sort through the details and do his homework and then fix the bike to the best of your ability and knowledge. It is not the job of the judges to judge your bike and then guarantee 100 percent accuracy. It simply can't be done no matter who the judges are or how hard they try. You can go back to the old saying, you get what you pay for. I think it costs 5 or 10 bucks to have a bike judged. How can you expect to get a 100 percent correct assessment for that price. It would probably cost 500 bucks for an expert builder to take a half day to pick your bike apart and then he still couldn't give a 100 percent guarantee. I'll go the 5 or 10 bucks and then do my own research. It's my bike and my job to get it correct enough to suit me. The heck with everyone else. They can do with there own bikes whatever they like but mine is mine. I know this is getting long winded and probably doesn't make a lot of sense but it is just my feeling and opinion. Just please go easy on the judges, they are just giving you their opinion and doing it on their own time to boot. Another thing you might try is posting a couple of good pictures here on this site. You'll get tons of feedback from the different members. Something to start with anyway. And by the way, Carl made you a good offer. He knows his stuff and will give you a good idea of what you have. Good Luck and don't give up.

[jwl]

The last couple of lines in my earlier post were meant to have been a reply to a post in the KNUCKLES category. I read both categories before I posted and got mixed up a little. Not too uncommon for me. Sorry.

[koanes]

John, I agree with your thoughts on the judging system. People tend to take the whole process too seriously. When I first joined the club in the early eightys the emphasis was on total restoration to new condition, regardless of condition. Having a background in auto restoration, I had seen many fine original condition autos "restored" to examples that did not truly reflect the original, as left the factory detail. As a workman involved in projects from teardown to final assembly, I saw changes made because someone, presumably an expert, concluded that the finish or fitment of a part was incorrect,despite the fact that when I removed them it was obvious to me that the piece had not been disturbed since new. I don't believe there is any way a person can declare what is or is not correct on a machine, unless they saw that machine in original unmolested form. Having said that, I think the AMCA system is as good as it gets, with good people that have way above average knowledge and interest doing their best to get it right. I really enjoy watching the judging teams work. I witnessed Mr. Olson being recruited for judging duty at the Fremont meet. He requested an apprentice spot on the Indian team. Carl is a smart guy, that put him in the enviable position of working with Howard Wagner and Jim Wall. What a great learning experience.

[KNUCK]

I agree with most of what has been posted here. My concern is that some things can never be settled, so really no points should be taken. We can't even agree what color was available for some Indians.
We should not be taking any points if it is in a gray area, or darn few.

Can anyone tell me ending with what VIN # does a late production 1946 Chief begin?

This may not interest a Harley person but I can come up with one for them also.

What engine VIN number did a Harley knuckle stop using painted lifter blocks in 1946?

I don't expect to have a 100 point bike so don't think that is my thing. I do want to get as close a possible. I am just a little guy having fun with a hobby and doing most of my own work the last 25 years.

[Carl Olsen]

In 46 all Knuckles had painted lifter blocks, in fact every knuckle came from the factory with painted lifter blocks. How's that for a gray area, get out there and get involved with the judging system of the club and learn more about the bikes that hold our passion. That is what I did and the learning is a continuous proccess, I am still learning every day. I judged a 42 knuckle at Fremont and made some bad calls, I called the owner the other day and went back over the sheet with the aid of Matt and we determined that the bike should have more points, when Kevin gets back home I am going to call him and get the score adjusted. We just scored an unmosested 46 knuckle that had not seen the light of day for over 30 years, we determined that the tanks had been removed at one time, but vitually everything else was the same as it left the factory. This has been a learning experience for post war knuckles and will set a new bar for our judging criteria, as an example in the service manual they state that the front piston had all compression rings and this one does. The grease was caked on so bad that if the bolts had been turned you would have known it. I urge everyone to become a judge or at least apprentice a little to see what is involved.
Carl

[KNUCK]

Carl I respect your knowledge and experience with knuckles but, not everyone produced in 46' came with painted lifter blocks.

Anybody on the Indian question have an answer??

[Carl Olsen]

Prove it!!!!!!!!!!! You must be thinking Panhead, those where the ones that started using aluminum.
Carl

[bmh]

If the lifter blocks on a knuckle weren't Painted, was the cast iron just left to rust? Or is there an aluminum knuckle lifter block that I have yet to run across? I would think the question really should be at what point did H-d run out of silver paint? In the end there is no substitute for doing your own research. I have spent countless hours studying old photos and such in persuit of answers to questions like these. Personally , I think thats part of the fun.
Brian

[Lonnie]

Carl is absolutely correct - all knuckle lifter blocks were painted. '42 through the war years were painted white (as was the oil pump). Once material supplies eased, H-D went back to silver paint. I've never seen or even heard of an aluminum knuckle lifter block! There ain't but three alternatives - chrome (God forbid - if you have any chromed they were done so by a previous owner) cadmium, parkerized or painted - and they were painted.

Interestingly, though '48 Pans are stated to have aluminum lifter blocks, I had a '48 (Winners Circle) now owned by Les White that has iron lifter blocks, the exact duplicate of the aluminum versions. These were also painted silver I might add. The motorcycle can be seen at the Old Mill Motorcycle Museum in Juliette, Georgia.

[KNUCK]

I seem to have left out one critical word when I asked the question about painted lifter blocks when I asked the question. I read my post again and see my error. That word was white, painted white. When did they go from white to silver in 46' ? Or what was the order of use in 46' if there was one.

Sorry for the the confusion, one word sure does make a difference. I will get a hammer and hit my hand for that one.


Still nothing on the Indian question................................

[miker]

I am tempted as well...I did not like having to justify the paint...Black and white. It was said that if it was a restored police it would be smacked cause I don't have it equipped so.
If not that then smaked for incorrect paint.

I kinda mentioned that HD has been selling civilanized leo bikes for years after the service life had been exhaust by leo standards....mine is just that. They came in lts of colors.

I am guessing some old boy musta got it on the cheap, painted read, sprayed the heads silver and tried top pass for a ul??? Thank goodness he didn't bob it (not that there is anything wrong there) Who knows. I found B&W paint on all three tins and put it back that way and am getting a little snotty about the snottiness (real word?) over poilce bikes being return to civilain duty.

My neighboor just bought a cream puff 04 flhr police in green and white, 7k miles, spotless and cheap. It does not have spotlights, radios or anythong else leo, just two tone that is eerily familiar to me due to my own incited exposure to our areas finest local gendarmes.