Judgind bikes with altered serial numbers

[hd36knuckl]

I have noticed several bikes in the judging with altered serial numbers. If the number is altered how do we know for sure what year or model the machine was originally. Say, for instance, that a 1930 VL is resored as a late 1930 VL with the late frame, late engine cases ETC. but carries a very early serial number which disputes all of those items. Can the machine be disqualified? Should it be disqualified?
Food for thought,
Chris

[T. Cotten]

I am not involved in judging, but still have an interest in preserving AMCA standards and integrity.

Not only should boogered numbers be disqualified,.. but any AMCA judge who suggests that someone stamp their own numbers should be removed. Permanently.

Promoting a felony is NOT in the best interest of the organization, or the vintage industry, hobby or whatever, in general.

Accounts of such have me mad enough to almost use a damn smiley.

[Perry Ruiter]

I worked as an apprentice judge at Oley this year (2002).
I felt one of the bikes had altered numbers and
pointed this out to our judging team captain. He
agreed the numbers looked suspicious but said we
would judge it anyway as the club could not be
judge and jury on the issue. Sadly the bike won
a junior award.

After thinking about it for a bit, in future
I will either refuse to sign my name to a judging
sheet for a bike with bogus numbers or make a
notation beside my name stating I feel the numbers
have been altered. This way any potential buyer
that reviews the judging sheets would see my concern ... Perry

[hd36knuckl]

Altered numbers

In responce to what T. Cotten said. I agree.
Serial numbers are the heart of a motorcycle. It is my opinion, which is not shared by the judging rules, that a machine with obviously altered serial numbers should not be judged.
I know of a WLA Harley-Davidson that was judged in an AMCA meet that had blank, factory replacement, engine cases on it. This is not at all uncommon with former military machines as engines were replaced and swaped with regularity. Everything on this machine was correct. Yet the judges dinged him for the replacement cases. The same judging standards that did this allow altered serial numbers. This "rule" should be changed.

[B. Rodencal]

Cases were replaced all the time, and in some cases the issuing state has it's own titling rules, such as issuing a state number. the bike may be an original paint low mile bike with grenaded cases that were replaced and issued a state title and number by the DMV. Unfortunately the bike would be disqualified by AMCA rules. It doesn't matter that every dealer stocked replacement cases (especially 45") for some reason according to the powers that be (Judges) this could have never happened and we choose to ignor it. I still have a set of post WWII auto engine stamps from our dealership that were used to replace all of the green block engines that were produced in a rush post war that went bad quickly! Until this rule gets addressed, don't plan on seeing any of my bikes on Sunday. FatDog

[T. Cotten]

FD!
None of my bikes are judgeable either, but that isn't the point here.....

First off, we are not just addressing the harley world.
We are talking about setting idealistic standards of originality and authenticity for all production machines.

Fudged is fudged. Period.

We look to the AMCA judges to serve vintage motorcycling by ascertaining the facts, and then to advise the enthusiast as to how to correct "faults".

For a judge to endorse a felonious act is what has me fuming.

As vintage bikes become more and more valuable, it becomes more and more tempting to break the rules, both of the AMCA and of our governments' laws. If an AMCA judge will be so unscrupulous, what is to say he will not also play favoritism, or even take a bribe?? Thousands of dollars in resale value can ride upon a senior, or even a junior badge.

There will always be a limit to judge's knowledge and references. But to promote outlaw attitude is inexcuseable.

[B. Rodencal]

TC I'm not saying go and stamp cases, all i am saying is certain states maintain their own set of re-numbering laws, some will put your same number back on a set of replacement cases providing you supply them the old cases and title, others will issue you a new number after you provide them with the old cases and title. It's up to the individual state. I don't feel that should make a bike any more or less valuable provided they are of the same part. Mike Smith casts up a teens harley or henderson that never saw Milwaukee or Detroit and he gets a 100 pointer. it doesn't add up to the same kettle of fish, just a real fishy smell! A guy with a 100% NOS bike with a state issued title gets disqualified. A number job is one thing but a legit title number issued by the DMV with documentation. should not be penalized. FatDog

[hd36knuckl]

Mike Smith's Hendersons are mostly completely reproduced. However the engines are original Henderson. It has long been the clubs rule that reproduction parts are ok as long as they are the highest quality available. There is no limit on how many parts on the machine can be reproduced. So a machine that still maintains an original engine is allowed.
I wonder how long it will be before someone buys one of V-Twins Knuck or Panhead kits and builds the bike using genuine H.-D. cases.
I wonder what the verdict on that will be?

[T. Cotten]

FD!
I think we totally agree.
I just feel adamant that AMCA standards must at least adhere to the Law. Any AMCA judge who suggests a felony as advice to gain points should be,....uh,... 'chastized',...if not dismissed.

On to a lighter but broader spectrum, there is indeed room for completely reproduction machines within the rules, as this non-judge reads them.

In most states, you need only surrender the crapped out VIN'd case to then legally have a reproduction case registered as the original marque.
By the letter of most US states' laws, a completely reproduction vehicle CAN be registered as the real thing, by this due process.
A solid papertrail, and familiar authorities, helps a lot.

So whip up another class, like a common car show? I hope not.

But still, it is within the mood of the organization to encourage new involvement. The ever-increasing rarity and cost of machines, coupled with an ever exclusive critera for judging, soon dooms much hope of new blood. I know I can't keep up.

Thre are so many gray areas to draw the line! A ninety year old machine can be reconstructed with appreciation and acceptance, as hand-craftsmanship would be paramount.
But how do we then look at a 50's pan straight out of Tedd's??

The judges have a very difficult responsibility to bear.

[AMCAGREG]

Obviously we have hit a nerve with Cotton on this issue. Let me say I mostly agree with you HOWEVER it you restamp the numbers on a machine and sell it as original it is fraud. If you reproduce the cylinders and sell it as original it is fraud. If you restamp the numbers of a machine that is not registered and you don't intend to register is that against any law? and in which state?
The real fear as I see it is the potential for fraud but not the act itself. I have had a least a dozen Thor motors that I have owned. I think 50-75% of them were restamped by the factory!
It was a common thing for the factory to do to make last years inventory a new bike. If the bike has a 1915 transmission trans fender etc and the motor is stamped 1916 on the outside of the case it is still a 1915. To restamp the numbers (found in the cam chest) onto the outside what crime has been commited?

[T. Cotten]

Greg!
I do not have my copy of my state's (Illinois) motor vehicle code handy for the exact wording, but any altered or defaced VIN or production number, or number added without due process of the law, is illlegal.

Such an act felonizes the hardware whether registered or not.
One bad piece of hardware can get your whole collection impounded, along with the truck and trailer you might be carrying them in.

Once again I must emphasize, any AMCA judge who would say "just stamp 'em" is doing both the enthusiast and the organization harm. It is outlaw attitude.

"Due process" is not that difficult. Maintaining the integrity of the organization, as well as the authenticity of hardware, is difficult.

The hardest part of due process would be to supply the proper stamps!

[Chris Haynes]

[QUOTE=AMCAGREG;43913]Obviously we have hit a nerve with Cotton on this issue. Let me say I mostly agree with you HOWEVER it you restamp the numbers on a machine and sell it as original it is fraud. If you reproduce the cylinders and sell it as original it is fraud. If you restamp the numbers of a machine that is not registered and you don't intend to register is that against any law? and in which state?
The real fear as I see it is the potential for fraud but not the act itself.

Wouldn't a bike, that had made it to the Winners Circle with obviously altered number, that is sold to someone as original be fraud?
In that case isn't our club perpetuating fraud by awarding an obviously altered machine?