AMCA Jan/Feb 2023 magazine 1960 FLH

[BigLakeBob]

I have a few questions pertaining to this particular motorcycle. The article says this bike scored 99.75 page 42, the only thing not original is some acorn nuts and lock washers page 44, and one of the most original and well-preserved FLH's of that model year you will ever see outside of the Harley-Davidson Museum in Milwaukee page 46.

So I am asking these questions as to factory original to get 99.75 points.

Page 42 picture
The rear chain guard appears to be the -63 style plus it is chrome?
The outer primary, maybe inner too?, foot rest bracket and buddy seat spring are chrome?

Page 45 picture
These items appear to be chrome in the picture or are they highly polished, either way is that correct?
Cam cover?
Pushrod tubes-shouldn't they be aluminum in '60?
Rocker covers?
Rear brake pedal?
What year did the master cylinder cover first appear?

Page 46-47 picture
Again the chrome or highly polished question
Kick cover?
Kick arm?
Oil lines?
Rear brake mounting bracket?
Buddy seat spring?
Foot rest bracket?

Is this factory correct? Being on the cover and featured in our magazine as one of the most originals, one would assume it has to be all correct? According to part # (chain guard starting in 1963) and listed available chrome packages in Palmers', they don't seem to match this example of a 1960. I am by far not an expert, so I'm asking those more knowledgeable, is this a 99.75 bike as it came from the factory? Beautiful bike, but?

Thanks.

[duffeycycles]

Favoritism have always been a part of AMCA judging

[Steve Swan]

Favoritism have always been a part of AMCA judging

Indeed. i still have a bitter taste in my mouth from 1986 for the judgement passed on my pristine '36 Indian 4 by so-called judges who were part of the exclusive clique that told the youngster (me) that my machine was "too plain." That was back when shiny "bling" on restorations won awards... one individual of that esteemed membership clique survives as a lifetime member-deity.

[Rubone]

My short lived judging career came to an abrupt end during the reign of the late Peter Heintz. The owner of a bike peter had knocked points off of asked me for clarification I was part of the same team) and when I was able to document his correctness and Peter's mistake I was suddenly no longer a part of the judging teams, and never asked back.

[KNUCK]

Bob, I think you pretty much listed and mentioned what I was thinking and seeing. Any time that an Original bike has been improved upon rather it be new chrome, additional chrome, increased polish to near mirror finish or upgraded accessories it CANNOT even be judged as original, the restoration has begun and it now is in the process of restoration. Not to mention any upgrades that are not in the accessory catalog for that year. But if it were to be ever judged again I can attest to the fact that the score can go down as well as up, just ask me!

Steve, Back in the 80's that was often the case, heck I saw first place bikes that were a color not even offered for the year. To see this current issue show up with such a big splash in our magazine is very concerning. Many of us with original paint bikes are really having difficult time seeing this. Just think this almost was a 100 point bike!

[duffeycycles]

My 1st apprentice was during Peter's time.He wanted us to destroy Waksler's credibility & give 100 points for his buddy's bike.I didn't do it again until I needed to make a point to Kevin.

[exeric]

My experience on AMCA judging teams was bad owners who melted down over their scoring sheet. I recall one guy at Oley who actually started crying. That was it for me. . . Oh yeah, it wasn't me that cried

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear guys, I'm minding the store as Chief Judge so I guess need to find some words. I started judging in 1997 at Davenport under Peter Heintz and have judged at 60 subsequent Meets. The judging system has changed a lot over those 25 years. The AMCA Judging Committee spent last winter gluing together our 2018/19 Judging Handbook and Guidelines into a single booklet, now Board-approved and posted on the Website this week. Have a read. It says we judge factory correct production motorcycles, either as restored or unrestored, with guidelines as to how much to deduct for any particular fault. The Disclaimer is also posted, which I read as saying judging is done by humans who can make mistakes, and don't quote the point score when you put the bike in at auction.

On restored bikes we are talking 'matching numbers' needed, with no repro frames or engine cases, and I think we know how to do this for most bikes. On unrestored bikes there are heavy penalties for repainting and over-restoring. I note that the Corvette Club judges unrestored machines only once, but we allow owners to 'improve' unrestored Junior First motorcycles by for instance finding a better original paint tool box at the swap meets. What's that all about? Trophy hunting while destroying history. We also see complete 'unrestored' bikes built around say an original paint set of tanks, plus lots of antiquing, and that can't be right. W&W Cycles are now advertising reproduction knucklehead frames by year, and number stamps can be bought at AMCA Meets. Bikes are actively being faked for the money, but I like to think our judges are still slightly ahead of the game.

Any magazine cover bike showing a point score will be a hostage to fortune, and we had the same problem with a '100 point' Australian bike a couple of years ago. I don't particularly want to research what happened to this particular bike at judging, but 150 bikes were Virtually Judged over Covid, and video does a poor job on paint and plating finishes. If the bike scored that high first time out, then perhaps there was not a Marque Specialist present. It looks like we have several of these lurking on the sidelines, capable of producing a list of faults apparently missed by previous judges. My advice of course is to forget those grudges from way back and join the judging activity at your next National Meet. I'll be at the European, Wauseon and Southern Meets this year, with experienced Event Chief Judges at the others. I'm happy to take questions on this bulletin board or at vlheaven@aol.com.

[BigLakeBob]

I agree judging is done by humans and mistakes happen. I appreciate the magazine and all the contributors that make it happen. The real error, in my opinion, is that this particular bike make it in the magazine representing that score for future young enthusiasts to see forever in the digital archives and which could argue over what is correct. Not trying to be factitious here, but could a person show up 3 years from now at a meet duplicating those finishing, then argue with a judge that correctly says they are wrong. Could this owner pull out a copy of the magazine and argue that the AMCA magazine stated it was correct so it has to be?

[duffeycycles]

On frames,I pointed out many years ago that we have accepted reproduction frames on early bikes without being able to tell,but so far many judges can spot a repro Knuck or Pan frame.

[T. Cotten]

...The real error, in my opinion, is that this particular bike make it in the magazine representing that score for future young enthusiasts to see forever in the digital archives and which could argue over what is correct...

So take judging virtual, Folks,...

And reduce the drama by letting everyone participate. Or do the cliques insist it stays exclusive?

Think of all the History of previously judged machines that has vaporized, but could have been easily preserved, and amended when proper.

The system fails its mandate.

....Cotten

[KNUCK]

Thank you Steve for for you input on this issue. I think from what you said, if I read it right, is that some bikes do slip between the cracks sometimes and that in this case it appears so, with a big splash.

I know that virtual judging is a hot topic in the club and Covid really did feed into that. All I can say is that a picture is worth a thousand words but looking at a bike in person is priceless!! I hope that these 150 Covid bikes were noted as virtual judged on the judge sheet and if not there should be a box to check on the sheet for future events! And never should a virtual bike receive a senior 1st, winners circle or 100 point award!

I do a lot of auctions and I can't tell you how many times I would preview a bike or car by photos, and then to go see it in person was such an eye opener. Most of the time it is a bit disappointing at the least, but sometimes on a very rare occasion it is even better.

[T. Cotten]

"Going virtual", Knuck,..

Doesn't exclude recording an AMCA judge doing his judging in person!

Do you think it should?

....Cotten

[tomfiii]

Chrome is California style restoration.

[RichO]

Dear Tomfill, As I have lived in California since 1949 and have built and rode antique motorcycles here since the late 60's I must take umbrage with your statement. Many,many fine properly restored and original paint machines reside here. The machine in question has always lived it's life far from the Pacific ocean as have many others with lot's of chrome and polish. I'll take my tongue out of my cheek and leave it at that. Cheap shot that it was. Rich