Frame changes for 1954 Panheads

[Chris Haynes]

I disagree. Eric[/FONT]

You are entitled to your opinion.

[Speeding Big Twin]

It is three months since I started this thread but I still see no answers to my questions about changes to 54 Pan frames. At what stage, as far as engine serial numbers are concerned, did the second WB debut and when did the SL appear?
Eric

[HDSmitty]

Perhaps Bruce Palmer could help you. I'm pretty sure he would want to know about any contradictory information in his much relied upon books. Hope this helps......Smitty

[Speeding Big Twin]

Perhaps Bruce Palmer could help you. I'm pretty sure he would want to know about any contradictory information in his much relied upon books. Hope this helps......Smitty

I’ve tried before to contact Bruce about the 1954 contradictions. For example, I emailed him twice in September 2017 but received no reply.

Over the years I’ve raised the matter on other forums but no-one has clarified the info in his book which is why I tried contacting him. This year I emailed Bruce several times but received no response. I’ve told him I’m trying to help owners of 54s. No reply. I asked for a copy of the drawing and I offered to pay in advance. No response.
Eric

[Speeding Big Twin]

I started this thread last September but the situation remains unresolved. Why is that? Why has no AMCA judge clarified info said to be on H-D drawing 47000-40A? The best solution would be for the drawing to be posted but that hasn’t happened either. Why can’t the drawing be made accessible to all members of this forum?
Eric

[Jerry Wieland]

I started this thread last September but the situation remains unresolved. Why is that? Why has no AMCA judge clarified info said to be on H-D drawing 47000-40A? The best solution would be for the drawing to be posted but that hasn’t happened either. Why can’t the drawing be made accessible to all members of this forum?
Eric

Eric The truth is that you have pursued this topic harder than anybody else. On the topic of 1954 frames the AMCA judges know lots less than you do. The sad truth is that a lot of this information no longer exists either on paper or in the minds of people now gone. The truth might be that HD never really did document it as long as one frame was just as good as the next.

I have judged numerous times. The AMCA judges are for the most part volunteers and have to be knowledgeable over a wide span of years and marques. Serial number breaks on a 54 frame is not within there job description.

Jerry

[Speeding Big Twin]

Cheers Jerry. However, according to Chris and Bruce the info does indeed exist. Chris has said several times and on more than one site that Bruce has a blueprint which lists dates of frame changes and that it says when the 54 SL appeared as far as engine SNs are concerned.

In his SE Bruce refers to drawing 47000-40A but some info said to be on the drawing is contradicted in his book and some of that text is itself contradicted on other pages. Some may try to interpret some info in the book but that doesn’t necessarily mean their conclusions will be correct. And it seems pointless trying to interpret the book when we know the proper info is on drawing 47000-40A which is why I keep asking for it to be posted. When we see the drawing the confusion will end.
Eric

[Speeding Big Twin]

I don't have Palmer's TE but I received a picture of its 54-only features list a few days ago and some of it is different to the list in the SE.

In the 54-only features list in the SE it appears the SN is wrong and the reference to it is in the wrong position. And perhaps Bruce said mid-season change because he was thinking about the change from first WB to second WB. But he altered things for the TE. The SN was changed from 54FL3500 to 54FL4499 and the reference to the SN was repositioned, apparently to reflect the intro of the SL. But it still says mid-season change. Shouldn’t the TE say late-season?

And I do not know if 54FL4499 is correct anyway. As I said above, it seems pointless trying to interpret the book when the proper info is said to be on drawing 47000-40A. Can someone please post the drawing. Thank you.
Eric

[Jerry Wieland]

Here is probably the only bit of 1954 I can add to this thread and the snow has melted enough that I was able to get into my shed and photograph it. It is the remains of a 1954 bow-leg frame that I acquired 30 years ago. It had been badly wrecked and someone straightened it by cutting out and adding small wedges of tubing. The neck and the partial upper tube are all that I have anymore of the frame. The rest was used to repair other frames. The date code is 4 A.

[Speeding Big Twin]

Thanks Jerry. Looks like there may be some forging ID on the steering head?

Recently I contacted a few more people regarding drawing 47000-40A and how the club determines if a 54 frame is the correct type for its engine. If I receive any info I’ll post it.
Eric

[Speeding Big Twin]

I read that motorcycles are judged against a known standard, ie, how they arrived at the dealership. But where the three types of 54 Pan frames are concerned was this known standard based on authentic documentation? The only factory evidence I’m aware of is drawing #47000-40A but I’m no closer to finding out exactly what it says than I was when I started this thread one year ago.

Motorcycles judged as original must have original engines and frames. For a 54 Pan I’d expect judges to use the engine SN as one way of deciding if the frame is the proper type because I read the wrong frame would incur a four-point deduction. And regardless of whether or not the two things are consistent with each other, I expect at least some owners would ask where the judges got their info from. It is a reasonable question, and judges must be fair, honest, understanding, reasonable and conduct themselves with proper decorum so how do they respond? If they say their info is from drawing #47000-40A, what happens if owners ask to see it? Would it not be fair and reasonable to assist all owners to this degree?

Or do judges not respond to such a request? And if not, is it because they themselves do not have access to the drawing? If that is the case then I suggest the AMCA, as a club, request a copy and place it in the virtual library for the benefit of all its members, especially owners of 54 Pans.
Eric

[exeric]

A bit of a sidebar, Eric, but are there many genuine Harley-Davidson blueprints out there? I've heard much of that was destroyed by AMF when they took over H-D, and from the many years I've been going to swap meets, I've never seen any H-D blueprints for sale. I'm sure some prints must have gone to dealers for various reasons but I know most engineering based companies are very tight with what they let out of the print room. Also, in the pre-AMF era, print copies were done as blueprint, or white print and it wasn't the easy process that reproduction is today. So I wonder how many copies of genuine drawings got out of the H-D engineering department? Just curious what you, and other members have seen, and heard about the existence of genuine H-D documentation.

[Speeding Big Twin]

I don’t know how many are out there and I’ve heard several stories about info destroyed in the AMF era. Earlier this year it was suggested I contact two guys who allegedly obtained some 250 H-D documents/design drawings a while ago. I emailed the first person but received no response. Twice I tried emailing the second guy but for reasons unknown neither of my emails got through.

One of the most well-known drawings is 47004-49A which includes info about the BT frame DC but it also mentions a certain sketch I would like to see. I think its number is 365B but I haven’t found it yet. Other drawings I know of feature a Knuckle engine and a Flathead 45 trans although it’s hard to read the details.

But the drawing I continue to chase is 47000-40A. We know it exists and we know plenty of people want to see it, especially owners of 54 Pans. It still hasn’t been posted though so the search goes on.
Eric

[exeric]

Thanks for the reply, Eric. Odd that a large portion of ACE engineering drawings have survived, and many Excelsior, Henderson drawings are still around (I have 2 Ex drawings on silk backed paper). In the case of Indian, I understand the big house cleaning in the '50s disposed of much documentation. You have to wonder if H-D mothballed a lot of their post war documents for legal reasons? Fun to speculate.

[Chris Haynes]

Have you contacted the H-D Archives at the museum?