General AMCA Judging-Scoring Question

[FCJ]

Is it possible for a bike to get 99 points if it has a seat type or style (e.g., color option) that was not available in or for the relevant model year?

Apologies in advance for my ignorance of the system. I'm just getting into this.

[FCJ]

To provide context (in case it’s helpful to someone otherwise hesitant to respond), I’m curious as to whether an AMCA score (offered up as proof or supporting evidence of certain claims) is even possible. I understand why someone would be proud of a high score and understand concepts of boasting, buyer beware, third party claims not endorsed or approved, yada, yada, etc., etc. I’m not looking to name names or cause trouble or embarrass anyone. I just want to be more educated and mitigate the risk of being misled by someone who may be (intentionally or unknowingly) making misleading claims.

[Jerry Wieland]

I think that if a bike up for judging does not meet the expected configuration it will get docked unless the owner can supply supporting documentation. So....?

Jerry

Is it possible for a bike to get 99 points if it has a seat type or style (e.g., color option) that was not available in or for the relevant model year?

Apologies in advance for my ignorance of the system. I'm just getting into this.

[FCJ]

Thank you Jerry. For whatever reason (probably because guys are proud of the score and I don't hear the score thrown around that much), I have always assumed that a 99 score was almost perfect and that something like an incorrect seat would result in a significant deduction (more than 1 point). But, now that I think about it, I don't even know if 100 points is the starting (highest total) score.

A seller is saying that a seat is correct for a specific year and essentially throwing the score out there as evidence of the claim (i.e., implying he could not have possibly scored 99 points for multiple years in a row if the seat was wrong). I wanted to know about the implication out of curiosity and also as a way to verify his claims. I think I am going to pass on the seat and it may be too late now anyway. Thanks again for the response.

[Steve Slocombe]

It's worth understanding the judging system and you really need to address these questions to Don Dzurick, and preferably gain personal experience through judging. A lot of background material is available from the Club Website as a download which I won't repeat. Every bike starts with 100 points until the judges make deductions of up to 4 points in each of 25 categories. So say front mudguard is a 4 point category and the bike has totally the wrong one, then that is a 4 point deduction. If it's the correct one with say a non-factory drilled hole, then that might be a minimum quarter point deduction, and so on. Bikes are judged as either restored or unrestored. Restored means like original showroom, while unrestored allows for the passage of time and period accessories. An unrestored bike that has been repainted takes a six point hit, meaning it can never get to the 95 points needed for Winners Circle. I've judged a few 100 point bikes, one being a Harley XLCR left in its crate by the dealer until he retired, then unboxed and run 3 miles. What a joy!

The Club judges are very knowledgeable and I've judged with the Harley, Indian, Japanese, British and European teams to make sure. The disclaimer we sign says the judging is done by humans and we can make mistakes, and the score should not be used to advertise a bike for sale. Nevertheless, there are people out there who like to brag, sometimes with bikes which have not been through the AMCA judging system. So the owner of a 99 point bike should be prepared to back it up with the judging sheet. As to the minutiae of what makes a 1 point deduction, the Judging Guidelines book has been complied to encourage consistency between judges, and a copy will be available on the judging field.

Judging interests only about 10% of our membership, but is respected by the other 90% and distinguishes our Club from others. Learn what you can from the literature then get involved and give it a try.

[FCJ]

Steve:

Thank you for the response and all the information. Definitely interested in learning more. My father enjoyed the AMCA. He is pictured (AMCA vest, white beard, and tinted glasses) in some photos I found on a Davenport site, including the photo below.

Photo:


[END]

[knucklehead 61]

if the seat is totally wrong you can expect at least a 2-4 point deduction.
i have been a judge numerous times & would support this deduction as its easy to correctly restore a seat.

[FCJ]

if the seat is totally wrong you can expect at least a 2-4 point deduction. i have been a judge numerous times & would support this deduction as its easy to correctly restore a seat.

Thank you. The specifics are helpful.

Based on what I have read so far, I assumed that there may be some issues that are more controversial than others; and that there may be different deductions for different types of issues. But, I didn’t know much else, including as to categories, what kinds of deductions could be expected for any type of issue, or whether deductions of less than one (1) point were even possible.

I believe that my issue probably just boils down to a difference of opinion with the seller as to whether a given color option was correct for a given seat type and a given model year. And, based on what I have read, I’m guessing that (reasonable and other) people can disagree about almost anything, including whether something is totally wrong.

I have probably taken this as far as it needs to be taken. I appreciate all the responses. Thanks again for the help.

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Fletcher, thanks for the photo and I may have judged with your Dad at Davenport. That was back when we did the judging in a closed room and the owners had to stay outside. We've come a long way since then in making the process more transparent.

[KNUCK]

if the seat is totally wrong you can expect at least a 2-4 point deduction.
i have been a judge numerous times & would support this deduction as its easy to correctly restore a seat.

I agree and as having worked as a judge a couple times would do the same deduction from what I have experienced.

[Chris Haynes]

I believe that my issue probably just boils down to a difference of opinion with the seller as to whether a given color option was correct for a given seat type and a given model year. And, based on what I have read, Im guessing that (reasonable and other) people can disagree about almost anything, including whether something is totally wrong..

As far as H-D goes there are many ways to determine what color and style of seat is correct for any year. The clubs Virtual Library is a great source. Many members have libraries of sales brochures and Enthusiast Magazine New Model Announcements with this information. Or for 1936-1965 models simply refer to Palmer's book where that information is shared. I know I often see restored mid 1930's models with brown seats which is totally incorrect.

[KNUCK]

So I have a Factory HD race bike, limited production, no kick or electric start, but restored to original. Can it be judged? Displayed?

[Steve Slocombe]

Our Club judging covers only series produced bikes, but Harley WRs are series produced and have sales leaflets with specifications. But volume was very low in many years, and the Club has cooled on judging race bikes recently, as most of them are presented not in the way they left the factory. It may depend on the year and model, so I'd ask this question to the Chief Judge. All bikes over 35 years old can be displayed. I'd certainly like to see it!