Getting Judged - first time

[Underdoggie]

If there are any '65 Pan owners watching please chime in on how your experience went and what your hit list was.

Ray, as you may remember my 65FL is a Winners Circle, judged in the "Original" catagory. I would be happy to provide you with my judging sheets and discuss these with you, just message me if you want to do this. I did it in two seasons, Davenport 09, Wauseon 10 and Davenport 10. It was an interesting experience. I was real nervous the first time out. After that is was OK. After your Junior First, make sure you have your past judging sheets available for the next judging. That is real important. I actually made a book with tabs in it for "Factory Documentation", "Owner History", "Repairs/Replacements" and "Judging Results". At Wauseon the judges actually used some of my "Factory Documentation" info on another 65 that was being judged, but in general the judges did not seem to interested in my book which was kind of disappointing to me, especially the Owner History and Repairs/Replacement sections. When we first got the bike in 79 there was not a wrap around cover on the battery ( I bought one at a swap meet in 1979 and put it on) so my first time being judged I left it off and got a 1/4 point deduction for not having it. I put it back on for the 2nd and 3rd judging and nothing was said about it.
I was a bit disappointed in the process from the point of view of not knowing what the deductions were for until after the judging is done and then everyone leaves so there is nobody to discuss it with. On my third time being judged I was actually asked to "step away" and not be in the area the bike was being judged in. In my case I would not have interfered with the judges but I can imagine some guys would be a real pain if you let them hang around.
There were some other strange issues with my third judging as well. If you want to talk more about my experience with this let me know.

[rbenash]

Hey John - thanks will definitely be sending a PM. Would be great to review the whole process with you and get an owners perspective on the whole process. Especially from someone who has been through it with a '65 Pan.

Interesting as I had been told previous to bring detail along and that if you had a concern or perhaps supporting information the time to do that was right after the judging so things could get resolved if there was a disconect or disagreement that you could support with factory detail, etc.

I'll need to adjust expectations on that part.


Ray

[Tommo]

These may help at judging.
They are the HD factory order sheets that Dad used to order his 1965 Pan.
They are pretty self explanatory

[Tommo]

The site wouldn't let me put them all up on one post.
Sorry about that.
Here's the last page.

[upsrod]

Ray,
Everyone seems to go round and round about the side battery cover on the 65's. Like Underdoggie said, he got dinged without it. Many think it
should be smooth not rippled. I sold some 65 parts to two judges at Davenportand they said accessories were not judged.
What I see on your bike now are the two screws holding the handlebar clamp cover should be round head phillips not slot, muffler clamp bolts
should be parkerized. The left side heat shield is wrong one for 65. the right rear heat shield didn't start until 66. 65 doesn't use the 65510-61
support clamp. Wrong bolts on the battery and ground cables. The regulator cover wasn't available in 65 but I see them a lot on winner circle bikes!!?
That is all I see now.

Rod

[Steve Slocombe]

Dear Ray and John, yes it's important to bring along your old paperwork, and the current judging rules call for a one point deduction if you do not. It saves time on the second and subsequent judging, as we can see what has been fixed on the gig list, plus eye the bike over again in case the previous judging team missed any faults. Judges are always being criticised for taking too long, so forgive us if we don't have much time to chat. But the Team Leader who signs the judging sheet should be available to talk to the owner after the trophies are handed out. It helps if the owner watches the judging team at work, so knows what to fix next time. Most owners are well-behaved, but a few argue the toss and have be taken to the sidelines. In general owners do the research, listen to the judges, and are just trying to get their bikes as they were when new, so we get on well.

[rbenash]

Rod, Peter, John, Chris, Steve - AWESOME! This is the kind of pre-judging detail that I'm looking for. Most of the points made are already understood. It's a matter of what I want to remove for judging and how best to prepare for the extent of the multiple stages.

If one is running a bike, which I am you set it up the way you want it for that purpose. I like the covers, etc and the accessories. If this introduces hits or there are other little nits that I can eliminate during the whole judging thing if you will it makes it simpler for the whole process. I can maybe eliminate some removal/adds as I ride then prep for the judging events. I.E. if I know what to remove fix ahead of time, if that makes sense.

Here's the whole photo detail that I have:

http://s80.photobucket.com/albums/j1...20Restoration/

Start from the end of the album to avoid being bored.

if other '65 owners/judges familiar want to have a look. Any additional input would be appreciated. I think this forum is one that can make things simpler for that first time through the process and can maybe help me be more efficient moving through the various judging events and get things done and planned ahead of time. Especially since I won't be making the first effort now until Oley. That's what Fall/Winter are for

I'm in the process of preparing for a 3 week trip to Italy, leaving in a couple days. I'll be sending out individual PM's as I catch up. I will be following this post and transitioning to PM as it applies. Thanks again for the candor and sharing.

On a side note pertaining to the accessories - I just figured to this point that if an accessory was available in '66 it wouldn't affect the judging on a restoration, so I have learned a good deal already. If you remove the battery cover and don't have the HD logo battery does that cost you anyway? The regulator cover is over a NOS Delco unit so I'm good there. The exhaust covers can just come off for judging for example. I would really like the earlier cover for the left exhaust if someone has an NOS they want to sell But heck that one that is there is an NOS from '66.

If this is tedious on others, please just PM.

Anything I learn will certainly be shared.

[pete reeves]

Ray.
Winners circle is the highest award you can get under AMCA judging, this requires your bike to achieve 95 or more points. Whilst it is necessary for your bike to be of a high standard to achieve this award it will not need to be perfect. The remaining 5 points should be enough to allow you enough flexibility to have a few minor fault’s. As the deduction for a slightly non period accessory is likely to be only about a ¼ point you have the option to leave it on your bike if you choose to and still get a winner’s circle award.

I recommend that you check out the judging guide lines which were produced in order to keep deductions consistent it gives recommendations to the judging teams as to what deductions they should make.
Pete Reeves 860

[rbenash]

Hi Pete - I have done just that (check the guidelines) and will do that again, thanks. What individual judges will pick out and the point deduction for each still sort of remains a mystery. I'll be reviewing a lot closer now since the project is pretty much done in this case. There are some unique challenges when it comes to these '65 Pans. I know that the same rules apply but this year is a really tough one to get right by anyone's interpretation as there were so many in year run changes down to minor minutiae and what an individual judge might pick out or remember if you will.

I think what you have given me is a good deal of confidence that although there might be a list (of course) the hits hopefully will not throw me out of a respectable range that is relatively easy to correct. Spent a lot of time on the "parts" collection (about 10 years) to try to figure out as much as I could on this one. Thing is this is my "new Harley" long story but this is my new bike. And I wanted a new '65. I will be running it.

When I pass the person that get's this bike may need to dress it up again, but it will be as close to correct as you can get within context.

The judging process in this case to me is to get a second/third opinion on how well I did with a 10 year effort to do the best I could to get this right. The builder I picked was also a serious selection (American Cycle Fab) and Paul Friebus was incredible in what he did and the length to detail he went to - to help me. This year is really tough. Unless you have one and you are restoring it one might not quite understand. John knows what I'm talking about for sure and probably feels good that he didn't have to do a resto on his

If one looks at the photo essay posted, and you know the weirdness around '65 Pans you can probably get it. I had one that was about 95% complete and it still took a long time to collect parts and get it back. The decision to repaint was huge and bridged into a whole other level of effort once I decided to do that.

Bottom line or me is I love this bike and want to ride it every chance I get. The judging thing is another aspect and is about confirmation that my research and time spent had some validity. Checking the work if you will, and separating emotion out of it.

In the end can't thank Paul/Barb Friebus and apprentice Joel of American Cycle Fab more highly on this.

[rbenash]

Ray,
Everyone seems to go round and round about the side battery cover on the 65's. Like Underdoggie said, he got dinged without it. Many think it
should be smooth not rippled. I sold some 65 parts to two judges at Davenportand they said accessories were not judged.
What I see on your bike now are the two screws holding the handlebar clamp cover should be round head phillips not slot, muffler clamp bolts
should be parkerized. The left side heat shield is wrong one for 65. the right rear heat shield didn't start until 66. 65 doesn't use the 65510-61
support clamp. Wrong bolts on the battery and ground cables. The regulator cover wasn't available in 65 but I see them a lot on winner circle bikes!!?
That is all I see now.

Rod

As far as the battery cover ribbed is in the '66 Christmas Brochure so that's easy to confirm. BUT - if you have a judge that says the cover shouldn't be there does a non HD logo battery get you a ding anyway? Could be a wash. I would REALLY like to have a nice period logo battery for my '65. I have tried to find one and posted here for one. Can't find one. I would use the shell and insert a gel inside for show. I really like the look for stock. The cover frankly is so practical though that I want it on for running. There's a Deka behind it, and if the point penalty is the same (cover vs non original batery) why bother

Another point - the muffler bolts. So in your memory/experience were they cad for both single and dual exahuast? Reason I ask this because plating on 65 exhaust seems to have some caveats if you ordered with King of the Highway/Dual Exhaust vs stock singel exhaust.

In that if you ordered with Dual it looks like the exhaust was all chrome vs some parts painted as factory single.

With the muffler bracket bolts, just curious whether the bolts went to cad from parkerized when you ordered dual EQ fishtail exhaust. The photos sent in this thread and others I have seen seem to show cad on the duals for EQ Fishtail. But again - what do I know, just would like to do the best I can.

Bolts are easy to change for the judging. I have to say I like the vintage cad better as far as looks though.