Black Paint

[Robert Luland]

Not all black paint looks the same. I need to set up an assembly line in my hobbit to paint everything from triple trees to oil tanks. I really don’t want to clean out that gun twenty-five times. Two days everything gets painted (Get a chance to try out my new Susie home maker self cleaning oven). Harley Vivid black is much too glossy and it’s a two stage system to boot. What would be the proper shade for these items? Does someone have a paint code? PPG, DuPont. Bob L

[T. Cotten]

I need to set up an assembly line in my hobbit to paint everything from triple trees to oil tanks. I really don’t want to clean out that gun twenty-five times. Two days everything gets painted (Get a chance to try out my new Susie home maker self cleaning oven). Harley Vivid black is much too glossy and it’s a two stage system to boot. What would be the proper shade for these items? Does someone have a paint code? PPG, DuPont. Bob L

Bob!

OF COURSE 'Not all black paint looks the same.'
The same paint sprayed on two different days can contrast dramatically.

And by that same measure, no two pieces of original black paint should be a perfect match either.
Not only does time play a part, but there ain't no way in Hades that every black part on a machine was originally produced with such an anal concern.

If all of your black hardware matches perfectly, it should be a judgable fault!
(Same for parkerizing, cad plating, etc.)

...Cotten
Please note:
I am in no way involved in Club judging, in any way or fashion.

And with great respect for our loss of Mr. Heinz and his pioneering of critical reforms, we can only hope that the future takes advantage of his foundations for a truly preservative legacy for vintage motorcycling, even if flawed as many perceive them at this time.

PPS: Modern paint formulations can NEVER reflect light in the same wavelenths as the originals anyway. Mother Nature forbids it, and our governments inhibit severely the availablilty and use of the original formulations as well.

That's why conservations rule, and restorations drool.

[Robert Luland]

Tom a lot of this stuff isn't even going on my bikes. I rebuilt a lot of stuff just to sell it and get it out of the shop. Now ya haven't answered the riddle! Whats the paint code.

[exeric]

Cotton, your observations about paint hues and shades are correct, but quality black paint is . . . black. I have seen shades and hues of black in foofoo can paint but never in basic black DuPont, PPG, S-W, or R-M. I think Bob's question regarding the correct gloss is a viable one. The big problem is, nobody can properly answer the question because there is not a 35 year old motorcycle on this planet that looks like it did when it came out of the factory. You can look at all of the Chris Haynes factory photos you want and they will not reveal true texture, color, or sheen. When you do look at factory photos, you can tell when something was glossy or dull but that's about it. subtlty is lost and we can only guess and postulate today. As for restoration and preservation, that's based on luck and money. Unrestored motorcycles belong to the few very lucky, and the many very rich. I'm poor so I have to restore junk that nobody wants.

[Chris Haynes]

Things like frames, forks, triple clamps were painted directly on bare metal with a single stage zinc-chromate paint. Sheet metal was primered and painted with enamels and lacquers, depending on the time frame.

[Robert Luland]

I appreceate the replys but nobody going to tell me that Harley didn't pick up the phone in say 52 and said give us 2000 gallons of code #?. Whether it varied over the year means nothing. There had to be a color code for basic Harley black.

[kval]

Robert
if you can get DuPont Centari ask for 99A. it is single stage and easy to do

[Chris Haynes]

The problem is that the codes used then were for paint of that day. You can't use a formula from back then on today's paint. Former H-D dealer Leon Landry had all the formulas from the '30's-'50's. Paint changed and the old numbers and formulas just aren't compatible with the paint we have today.

[Robert Luland]

Robert
if you can get DuPont Centari ask for 99A. it is single stage and easy to do

Thanks Kevan. Got a DuPont dist here in town. Will get a half pint to day and do a test. I understand Chris that the codes are out dated but were talking black. I just want to get some were in the ballpark.

[flat-happy]

i use that dupont centari 99A on everything black frames and all. just strip clean hand them up with wire coat hangers and spray---no primer needed. really i think it is a little shinier than original but if you want to you can dull the surface slightly with scotchbrite. no one ever got a deduction for being too shiny as far as i know

[exeric]

I didn't know you could still get Centari. I gathered from the DuPont dist. here in Sarasota that DuPont discontinued it. They suggested DuPont Nasson Ful-Thane which I now use. It mixes just like Centari and dries tough as nails. Bob, black is black, is black when it comes to brand name paints like R-M, PPG, and DuPont. It is used in the formulation for other colors so it has to be right. The only way it's not going to be "black" is if it's put on too thin or sprayed too thin over a light primer, or you get bleed through from cheap paint or primer under the black. I can assure you, the big manufacturers do not make different shades of basic black.

[T. Cotten]

Whether a fellow was re-doing for resale, or the other extreme of doing it only for one's self, the criteria should be durability.

No matter what coating goes on, its not the original.
Nor will it ever look exactly the same to different observers, much less compare to the original. (Unless fatigued with skill.)

Modern formulations will never reflect light identically, but they can be a-whole-lot-more-better.
Just stay away from evil powdercoating.
(You all knew that....)

The State of Illinois threatened me with incarceration if I was ever caught with a spraygun in my hand.
So I 'put out' for VHT black epoxy rattlecans.
Beware however, it is black and not black.

...Cotten

[PRG]

Howdy Chaps,

Beyond formulation differences, how you apply it and dry it can have an influence. Dipped and baked does not resemble sprayed and air cured. Baking temp and dry time will influence final gloss and some pigmentation flashes with the solvents if rushed but at the same time, surface density may be higher as other non-pigment ingredients are quickly flashed off/burned as the solvents dissipate.

Shooting multiple wet coats as opposed to a couple of dries with a final wet top results in a more chalky look with the latter on blacks whereas the former will look deep and too glossy for an original restoration. As blacks are not as opaque as one might think and shooting over bare steel usual may provide a different appearance in natural light than over brown oxide or grey.

Freed of the usual enslavement to paint prep/application from my last restoration, the 441 done in Glasurit, decided to experiment with half a case of Rustoleum rattle cans on this Vincent Black Shadow just to see what kind of finishes could be achieved by altering application temp, air dry, oven dry, etc.. Results were enlightening and now there for anyone to see who views this machine as I left all 60 plus pieces painted this way intact on this rider. They vary from cheap glossy translucent black to semi-flat and then a finish much like a steel case desk with excellent opacity.

[D.Mac]

Well, I guess now now I can admit it: I'm also a member of SCA (spray canners anonymous). I've been using spray cans on motorcycle and hot-rod parts since the mid '60's, too late to change now. I don't mean to poo-poo anyone else's methods, but I think paints like centauri tend to look too good for a lot of the small black parts, and can make a bike look over-restored. I don't beleive any make of motorcycle came with concours quality paint work on their black parts, but I see restored ones that look it. My weapon of choice for small black parts is Plasti-coat engine paint, easy to use, looks about right to my eye, and blends pretty well for touch up on frames etc. I must also admit that I don't own any 100 point machines though.
Doug.

[PRG]

Howdy Doug,

One thing I failed to mentioned with my Shadow - nicknamed The Rattler for the sound of steel rattle can balls resonating through the shop during this process - was I'd forgotten how fragile any non-catalyzed paint can be, aerosols at the head of the list.

I've become spoiled with wiping down machines with simple green or, in context with this post, brake clean for which 2 part paints like Glasurit are impervious to damage. If that doesn't completely remove aerosol paint (unintentionally), it permanently alters the appearance.

To more accurately replicate the "Steel Case"/industrial machine appearance of old m/c frames and cycle parts, one can use Glassurit's flattening agent with its two part paints.